Josh; I'll take the bait. As I understand it, the state forests and the parks are two different entities with two different directives. The parks are to set aside as natural areas for recreation and conservation. The state forests, as far as I understand, were designed to be areas that the government can have significant control over resource management and utilization.
At the turn of the last century, nearly the entire state of Pa had been denuded of trees. Hard to believe but there are lots of pics showing vast areas completely cleared of trees. Many areas had also experienced extensive strip mining for coal and limestone. This led to repeated flooding and erosion from these cleared areas. This was true of Ohio as well.
The states responded by declaring large areas as state forests so that the states could manage resource extraction in a safe and environmentally correct manner. If this is true, then there is no reason why the state forest areas should not be open to gas drilling as long at is is done in a controlled method to minimize disturbance.
The parks are a different deal. Parks are usually areas that are so unique that they acquired special designation to protect them for future generations. They should be left alone. Perhaps some of the areas, such as parking lots or areas near major roads or commercial sites could be used on a special case by case basis but they should be limited on how that is handled.
Just my two cents worth on an interesting issue that has to be dealt with.
Thanks for responding, I also believe we should find a happy medium. I know times have changed just wonder what Roosevelt would do with this situation. I think the state of Ohio has alot to gain from this shale play and hope we all can benefit from it. Whether at the pump, pockets, revenue, and creating jobs.
The Pa Game Commission has large land holdings bought and paid for by Game Commission funds such as hunting license fees and the Pittman Robertson funds. These "Game Lands" are being leased, many with no-surface-activity leases. They will get huge revenue gains and either forestall license fee increases or acquire more land...or both!
Allowing state forests or parks to develop the gas will be agreat way to fund them and needed improvements.
I am also pro drilling, but the biggest mistake that Pennsylvania did was the quick leasing of public lands for gas drilling. I think that drilling itself may not be bad, but 1) it should not be used to plug a State budget hole and 2) it should be done only after a study of all properties to see which areas can be drilled and under what circumstances. Any drilling proceeds from State Parks (if any) should remain in the State Park system for improvements and expansion.
We might find that if we do things carefully, our public lands can actually be better off with limited drilling. Willy nilly drilling and then throwing the $ into the State Budget is not the way to make that happen.
Here we go Josh, if the natural gas and oil resources can be removed in a environmentally friendly atmosphere without disturbing nature, then why not provide a flow of money to a bankrupt state, created by the Transfer of Wealth Ideology from the Kool Aid Drinking Marxists who have been in power too long and now being removed from power throught the "Awakening of America" People can either get on the train or get off the tracks because WeThePeople are Taking This Country BACK! .The production of our natural resources can fund infrasture repair and support of the subject lands and lessen our personal tax burden. If the natural gas and oil are not removed from state lands, the same resources will be sucked out from adjacent landowner leasing/ drilling, as well having gas and oil migration to adjacent land for removal. With this scenario, our state revenue base will see absolutely little revenue from those resources if they are not permitted to lease "our" state lands. This process for state land revenue can be handled in a responsible manner entirely without disturbing the landscape and I am personally aware of a plan of how to make this happen . With the technology currently in place, as well as additional new technology on the horizon, we can do the process responsibly. May we all think out of the box and make good things happen for our state, our country and our people! When we begin to see the "Greenie's" start their attack, I hope we will all take the time to retaliate in an educated manner and ask require them to back up their philosophies and attacks, and, if you follow the tail backwards, you can usually find the donkey. People in my own generation have forgotten more about being green and conservative than the current generation will ever attain with plastic water bottles they carrry around. When was the last time we saw one of them wash a glass milk bottle and have it reused or wash a diaper that came from a tree, instead of throwing it in a landfill. This current society is a society of brainless waste who have driven our industry out of this country as well as provided many other brainless ideas such as electric cars which end up using more energy than the abundant and clean burning natural gas. Now before I write a book on the next subject of Al's global warming lie and the CO2 taxation, I must end this book now, but if we study those layers of strata, we are currently discussing in regard to the natural gas and oil recovery, we might learn a lot about what happened several times over the 4.5 billion years of existence of this planet earth. All is very simple and quite interesting for which history is repeating! Our life time here is but a speck of dust on a grain of sand, relative to what has transpired over the history and life of Planet Earth.
I like this discussion cause it is overdue...
R.L. Burgess...you said,
" because WeThePeople are Taking This Country BACK! .The production of our natural resources can fund infrasture repair and support of the subject lands and lessen our personal tax burden"
but that sounds good to us Americans...Mom's apple pie, two car garage...the American ideal of taking care of our nation. Not so to the oil companies that are busy supplying China, India, etc. our natural gas investment and the product.. So are we now producing to help rebuild our infrastructure or because of our lack of funds we are selling out America?
I know it sounds good...Pickens certainly made it clear that NG is a way out for America to rebuild...but at what cost if the 'assigns' clause is so easily used to sell our natural resource interests to non-citizens? and even the Saudi's are buying into ownership of leases? Why not, they stand a risk at losing market share and our O & G companies wouldn't think too much at resisting offers from them also...do they care about us Americans using our own natural gas and having exclusive ownership of our resources? Why not the parks and recreation areas also...why not the land under nuclear power plants also? I thought this was to get away from dependance on the Saudis for oil?
so what is the solution...enact legislation as to what the oil companies can do with that 'assigns' clause so that the landowner isn't holding the bag of emptyness of what to do when they find out that the Saudis or the Chinese are going to actually be the ones to pay them their royalties and send that natural gas overseas. Keep the contract assigns clause limited so that the original lessee cannot just turn the lease over to foriegn investors as to just whom will you complain to if you find you are dealing with a non-citizen in payment for your royalties in a contract being held by production (is our court system ready for such?). Just how desperate is the American for $$$$ these days that they forget that this is America , a land of opportunity not for carpet baggers to profit off the people.
VG, you make a good point and one year ago, I was in total disageement with the foreign sales of our NLG and by products, but I have reassessed my thought process and that of others.......what are our alternatives to not selling foreign with the mess this country is in and the possble coming financial failure, unless the right person(s)get in control of this sinking ship? Wish I had more time for discussion, but have got to go for the next four days or so. Please continue this discussion with all those willing to participate and think out of the polical party allegiance box for which many are entrapped and wearing blinders, most of which is created by the brain washing media on the idiot box and the politically controlled eduational system across this vast land. Over and Out!
thank you RL....
Being that all this starts with a negotiated contract... I think we should as landowners start demanding a more up to date lease contract and put the demand on the O & G to arrive at a fair bargaining contract. I sold real estate for many years and I know that when leasing or sales are involved that a good realtor knows that a shyster contract will not benefit the sale or lease over the short or long haul (cause they want paid and not sued). That is why a realtor association was formed to get these things in order. I recommend that an association of landowners for landowner's rights and protection be started and a representative to call upon the oil and gas companies to recognize such an association and their contract for equitable and ethical use.
If we can present a real estate contract for a buyer to negotiate with in our states of the USA then surely we can do the same for the landowners of this country in reference to the leasing of natural resources. Then we have a system that will implement a better system for negotiating and less people will be cheated that way....but such a system is backed by dues. You that are farmers know about such as you pay for associations relating to farming and its ethics.
In the interim more attention to the 'assign' clause in the way it is used. By letting the original lessee off the contract then the landowner has no idea who or what will be his lessee and if the terms of the contract are not fully negotiated in understanding and fairness then problems could occur and since most went into the lease as lessors with being told it would only be five years...and then a new lease and new negotiations....we are now finding out that may not be so. The landowner must be in control of some say so (even financial) in these 'assign' clauses.
As far as selling to other nations...there stands to be a gain for America (we think?) for taxing the exports...but what if we find that they will be taking out our NG only to sell back to us?
Here is where state representatives and senators and even news media need to pay attention.
But we as the landowners need to be more informed and more united cause we are the ones that have the contract for all of this in our hand (or our parents) and our concern for our children in America needs to be regarding the land and its resources not just the upfront monies to be made, though I tell you that money is needed also and that is why some just give away the 'why America is beautiful' for the upfront money (and they didn't know just what their towns,cities, and lands would look like when the drill rigs and fracking trucks showed up.
The leasing of our national parks and lands should be regulated regarding foreign investment and I do not know if it is (haven't done research on that yet). I did look at a lease online from a national park but it only talked about some issues not about non-citizens holding the lease as lessees on the national park land. There should be clauses concerning assignment and storage, etc. when we know that the NG is being used for export...or they should identify that it cannot go outside our nation or be held by another nation in lease unless a U. S. company continues as part of the lessee to keep some check and balance in the system. If anyone knows if this is already being done...pls post the link to the info...thanks.
Just did a little research (oh..to give that time to all of this as well as other matters...you know what I mean).
to not re-invent the wheel....does anyone know what this group is and does? Do they have a general contract for leasing for natural gas and oil, etc.? If they do or don't, perhaps a general form contract can be done and perhaps with enough support they oil companies would recognize to use the contract presented instead of the old archaic contract they now use? less addendum clauses (cause of a better orig. contract) and better fairly balanced negotiations between lessor and lessee will result in a better America.
I sure hope Keith ( our webmaster) will share with us on this one...he knows more about all this stuff going on than most of us.