Trumbull County, OH

A company called Wishguard has been in the area for roughly the past 2 weeks leasing acreage in Northern Trumbull and Southern Ashtabula counties and are offering 1600 an acre lease and I believe 15% royalty.  They're not a drilling company...I know that they previously were leasing in Southern Ohio for Gulfport Energy...and was wondering if anyone had any information on who they were leasing for now?

It just seems odd to me how they have suddenly popped up (have been signing up a LOT of acreage here recently!) just when landowners who joined the ALOV group are getting impatient with all of the 2-3 week extensions there have been in the ALOV negotiations (yesterday those in ALOV were notified of another 3 week delay...)

I didn't sign with the ALOV group...but know several in my area that ARE signed with them and HAVE received e-mails from ALOV saying that another bidder has entered the picture so they have extended negotiations for 3 more weeks.  An ALOV rep contacted my neighbor to see if he wanted to add his 1500+ acres to the Northern Trumbull group at the beginning of Sept. and said bids were to be opened by mid-Sept. (same as others I know signed with ALOV had said they were told...).  I'm sure that ALOV is trying to get the best possible deal for those in the group...just wondering if anyone in ALOV is aware of Wishguard and all the landowners suddenly deciding to drop out of ALOV and sign with Wishguard?  How much of the 18,000 acres in ALOV's group will be lost, and what will it do to bargaining power ALOV has?

I HAVE seen the lease Wishguard is offering, and compared to the standard ALOV lease it's by no means good for the landowner...

Show me in ANY WishGard lease where it says a well will be drilled any time soon...and also show a clause in the lease that GUARANTEES payment in 120 days, not just allowing the 120 days to lapse and thereby the lease lapsing also...

Knowing WHO WishGard is leasing for might help, but they refuse to say.  With ALOV and most other landowner groups, you know before signing the final lease which O & G company you'll be signing with...

2.  GAS:  To pay Lessor an amount equal to sixteen percent (16%) of the revenue realized by Lessee for all gas and the constituents thereof produced and marketed from the Leasehold, less the cost to transport, treat and process the gas and any losses in volumes to point of measurement that determines the revenue realized by Lessee.  Lessee may withhold Royalty payment until such time as the total withheld exceeds fifty dollars ($50.00). 

This also is in the lease...terrible for landowner because it effectively does away from an O & G companies requirement to meet an implied covenant, which when combined with other sections in the lease prevents the landowner from ever terminating the lease:

LEASE DEVELOPMENT.  There is no implied covenant to drill, prevent drainage, further develop or market production within the primary term or any extension of term of this Lease.  There shall be no Leasehold forfeiture, termination, expiration or cancellation for failure to comply with said implied covenants.  Provisions herein, including, but not limited to the prescribed payments, constitute full compensation for the privileges herein granted.

Actually, when ALOV reaches an agreement with an O & G company and brings the lease before the group members for a vote, the members are told exactly who the lease will be with...nothing ignorant at all about that!  Yes, the lease can then be subsequently flipped, but so too can a lease signed with WishGard.  With WishGard, though, a landowner is signing blind right from the start and will be tied to whatever O & G company acquires the leases from WishGard...

I had to have the entire WishGard lease resent to me (first copy I got only was the basic lease) and you're correct...in the addendums it does have the language making the royalties gross instead of net...

However, I reread the main body of the lease again...it contains both the part I referenced below about there being no "implied covenant" within the lease, and also contains a clause detailing the land delay rentals...checked in the addendums and found nothing there to do away with the "no implied covenants" clause in the lease, so HOW does that benefit a landowner at all?  Violation of the implied covenant of drilling and producing royalties is how most of the undeveloped, leased land is resulting in those old leases being terminated (similar to the Hite ruling in PA), but under the language of the WishGard lease this option is signed away.  There's no way I'd consider signing ANY lease that would give away this very valuable right...

I only own a small acreage, but have gone in together with a neighbor - between us, we have 2000 acres more or less.  Lease language can easily make it a requirement that, to accept any, means an O & G company must accept all, a guarantee that can only be accomplished through specific wording of a lease...

Has anyone from the trumbull county group heard anything from ALOV?

Tom,

My mom hasn't heard anything.  She's been going to all the meetings.  Might have to call Russ Banks for information.

Hi Guys and Gals, I dont have the chance to read and post daily (wish i did), but after reading the past four pages in reverse order (what a pain) the discussion makes more sense to me. I will weigh in with your permission, Michael, I am not sure how long you have worked with the public and maybe its a generation issue, but i will say this, your people and sales skills need work. The moment you become confrontational with a prospective client or otherwise, you lose, most especially when done in a public forum. I have owned and still own, three and two, respectively, self started small business's, so after over twenty years in a sales and customer service capacity, i know what i speak of.

Secondly, Michael, there is truth to some of your statements, as well, although Edward, Jeff,  and the others have many valid points. I for one would like to have the chance to read Wishgaurds lease, with addendums, would you please post a link to a virus free PDF? The proof will be in that and that alone.

Third point, I am a landowner who has signed up with ALOV, Northern Trumbull county, and many neighbors who i respect for their business savy have also done so. I will stay the course and be patient to see what they come up with. I have read their lease and if signed as written, it is the best lease i have ever seen, and i have seen more than most, my experience goes back further than any shale play anywhere. Of course it will not be signed as written, not all addendums and clauses will be accepted by the O&G company. I truly in my heart of hearts do not believe anyone will lose out by waiting awhile to see how this thing shakes out.

Another point, a large part of ALOV's shortcoming's is their inability to effectively use the internet to post updates, or email all who have provided contact information, or to even telephone those who don't have email. This leads to exactly this kind of he said, she said, who said stuff. Keep up the good work everyone with the updates and please post any hard information you can come up with, facts and figures, for none of us know everything, so this forum helps us all round it out. Again, Good Luck to All and God Bless.

I didn't think i had so much to say this morning, but one last thing before i go feed cattle, is this. The mega O&G companies may have their own rigs and enough of them, capable of drilling these horitzontal wells. But the smaller companies do not, they contract them out. Under the current conditions, i have this on good authority from my best friend who works in the industry, it takes a five or six year commitment to that driller, to keep him and his crew working, to get a rig moved up here and have it move onto your location. There are only so many rigs and the cost per well is very high, much more so than any Clinton, or Berea well from days gone by. This is specialized equipment and even BP or Shell or whatever, have contracted with independant drillers, outside of their own subsidiary's, from time to time.

Also very little is known about this formation and companies don't dish with each other on the well logs, core samples, and other geological findings. Thats just good business, so that means very little factual information will be shared with the public, except what is required to be filed by the state. Most of that happens after a well is put online, or into production i should say. Oh sure, each company has its well log's and core samples from the wells already drilled, including the vertical ones from years past. But exact information on this formation is still largely unknown here in ohio. And each well will add to the knowledge library, so some areas of little interest initially may become the next land rush, when the wells drilled in 2010 and 2011 are finally put into production.

Also remember, we have seen very little in the way of infrastructure updates yet. In almost every county, we will see mass roadside gas project's as new larger pipline is laid and even old lines of adequate diameter are replaced due to age. They can sell little or no gas into the small coroded lines from the  1960's or whatever, since the last time line was replaced. This means the wells drilled last year and this year are most likey going to be delayed in production (and royalty payments) until this happens. All the while the industry has to work this out while keeping the bottom from falling out of the prices they are paid per barrel of oil and mcf. of gas, or the whole thing comes to a halt if its deemed unprofitable. So iguess what i am saying is relax, if you can keep from going under financially, you might do well to adopt a wait and see attitude for awhile. If you are struggling to keep a home, then you must do what you have to do for you and yours, and that is exactly what the O&G lease agents are counting on, hence the small bonus money, boilerplate leases, and min. royalty %'s. Pretty much the same thing the Amish logger's are doing last couple of years, now that i think of it. Capitalize on your misfortune, thats the name of the game, too often. Grab and go, laughing at you all the way to the bank. Well really gotta go now on that note. Best Wishes.

Hi James!  Been a while since I've seen you on here!

Everything James said is correct - ALOV does seem to have a FEW shortcomings (mainly with their communications skills...I was a union contract negotiator for years, and if we EVER went more than a few days without updating membership, there would have been a mass mutiny!), but even with those shortcomings, ALOV for most is by FAR the best option!!!!  As said below, the ALOV lease is regarded by most as the best lease available in the area!  Even for those like myself who aren't signed with any group yet, the ALOV announcement of their agreement in this area is still very important - it lets everyone know what a base starting point for the area will be.

I've already decided against WishGard at any terms now - high pressure sales tactics, a lease that effectively binds the landowner permanently to whatever O & G company that ends up with it, and their questionable business practices (see elsewhere on this site about WishGard/Pleasant View) - leaves me unable to trust anything they or any of their representatives have to say...

Hi Tanya, Hi Edward, Hi All, 

ALOV, associated landowners of the ohio valley, have a website and a PDF of their lease as proposed, as well as some information on the areas they have already worked a deal for,  and mapped out the property's affected. 

Their shortcoming's are they don't update often enough. But they have a very nice volunteer staff and the leadership seems competent and i believe on a volunteer basis as well.

I think the $60 application fee, regardless of acreage, was just that and no other fees are due. I believe alot of their funding has been from their own pockets and other donations.

I think this is why it has been said the new entity"Buckeye Mineral" will be a fee for service deal. They have countless hours invested in ALOV, as a community service, and any further work they must feel the need to be paid, justly so in my opinion.

Many have already gotten paid their "Bonus$" in group A), as well as i think there are many who are still waiting due to problems uncovered in the due diligence portion of the program, that need cleared up, then they can get paid as well.

Northern Trumbull and Ashtabula counties are either group B or C i'm really not sure at this point.  I have called them several times for updates and usually post it here unless they hint that i should not. I think Craig Stull also calls them often for same.

I signed with them, but i am still gathering information and reading other leases, its good to have a backup plan. they have yet to contact me with any information, and i have been told soon they will be ready to mail out the packets and call for a vote, several times, and still i wait.

 My business and my farm have both suffered due to the economy, same as most others, so its a balancing act to wait and see, but wait i will. I could use the money but my wife and i decided we lasted this long, so lets just take it slow and sure. By the way we have Organic Grass Fed Black Angus Beef, box packages for sale, choice two year old humanly treated steers, if anyone is interested. We have 50 lb. min. up to whole beef to offer. There thats my shameless plug, why not, seems that every landman in the nation does the same here one way or another. Best Wishes to All, Hope to see you soon at the finish line (the bank, check in hand, LOL).

Has anyone heard anything from ALOV for the trumbull county area?

Tom, trumbull county alov (group c) are still negotiating with several o/g companies. alov ( group b) in several counties to the south just came to an agreement with an o/g company last week and had negotiations for nearly six months.  If I had to take an educated guess it will be a while longer. I,m thinking mabey after the first of the year. We can only wait and see, I think it will be well worth the wait. Good luck

Craig, 

Has it occurred to you as to why there is no deal yet?  Is it perhaps that the o/g companies do not want to spend money up here until chesapeake gets done drilling the test well in Geauga county to see what they do first?  If the o/g companies can drag the ALOV group along just a little longer than they can know what the area holds without having to pay money to "speculate".  If the results turn out good then they will lease anything they can get their hands on.

Even Chesapeak is drilling those wells on old 1969-1970 leases.  They didn't even spend money on leasing this far north!  There is a reason for that.  It is a gamble at this point.  If they can find out what the area holds without spending money to lease than it is perfect for them and all the people lured in by big up-front money sit and wait.  If the results come back "bad" then they simply walk away and the people that have deals made on their property get paid while the people holding out get $0.  ALOV has had how many months and they can't even give the members a copy of a lease to read over yet they just keep saying..."a couple more weeks" or that they are "looking" for a place to hold 1500 people.  Wake up!!!!!!!!!  They are buying time!

By the way Tanya, you are starting to see how these o/g companies play the game.  I wonder how many of Chesapeaks subsidiaries are bidding on the same acreage to buy time? 

There is a reason they like these large groups!  I bet if those test wells come back good then they would be happy to take that acreage and as fast as they can before the word gets out and they have to pay what it is worth when the acreage is actually proven.  I bet there won't be any trouble communicating to the members or finding a place to get together as soon as those results are back.

This is purely my theory.  I hope whatever happens benefits all the residents of this area.  I just hate to see so many people that don't understand how they can be mislead and not even realize it until it is too late.  I wish you all good luck in this ordeal.  Just don't get blinded by up-front money because when that money is gone, you are stuck with what you signed for potentially a long time!

Good luck and good night!

Adam

Adam, there is a deal. o/g companies are spending money, and the test wells are not finished yet. read comments for alov updates. and you thought you knew something. 

                                             Good DAY

ok thanks

Adam,

Thank you for the information.

Thank you Adam.  I agree with you.  As soon as they found a few hot spots in Pennsylvania, the lease values soared.  I think this PUSH to convince the public to take what you can get is highly questionable.  How can these gentlemen be so pessimistic If no test wells have been made in Trumbull for Utica?

Hey Dominic.  I heard a deep well is being drilled on the Logan Farm in northern Trumbull county. 

Hello to all, I receive a monthly enews letter from a group up in Cleveland, and have used their services in the past, that may be of interest to many of you. I thought i would share their website address with you, http://www.innercirclellc.com/index.php . They are a multi-disaplined group of accountants, tax advisors, and wealth management people. I am certain they can help those of you who receive leases and  Bonus checks.