Penn Land Owners

John,

Here's what they do. They take the potential damage that can occur and make it fact for every case. Maybe the wreckless punching of holes in the ground for water wells should be banned too? Places where there is NO drilling there are still wells that have natural gas in them. It's pointless to argue with people who have one agenda--to deamonize the O&G companies. This whole subject is pointless to discuss any more. If you believe everything that PBS puts out, you can believe the link below.

http://www.hyper.net/ufo/video-documentaries.html

I agree, I just did a quick search and found that the US has 450,209 operating gas wells.

http://www.propublica.org/special/map-number-of-producing-gas-wells....

That is a huge number. With the recent boom in tight shale gas exploration, (Haynesville,Marcellus,Barnett etc.) I am sure a large percentage of these wells utilized the hydrofracking process. I'd love to know the number of methane explosions, water well contaminations, other fresh water contaminations that are directly related to these gas wells. From a percentage standpoint I'd bet my house we would find the percentage is miniscule.

John I do have only one agenda that is not to malign the industry but to ask them to do it responsibly so that in 100 years or less, the quality of life in Northeast Pennsylvania will not be destroyed. The also need to be mindful that there are people living in the areas in which they are drilling. I went to Dimock, PA last week and what I saw was unbelievable. The industry set up a frac farm no more than 200 feet from someone's doorstep when the industry had plenty of other land to locate on. They have many residents receiving water weekly because their water is unsafe to drink. They are placing pipelines through wetlands. They are transporting frac fluid in above ground pipelines for long distances. This is just the beginning of what I saw. All of these occurrences are not necessary and could be avoided with better management practices in place. They can be more responsible and I do not think that is too much to ask.

BTW... PA has 52,700 operating natural gas wells. We are second to TX who has 76,436.

With natural gas exploration being so dangerous and accidents,spills and contamination ocurring so "frequently" (direct quote from the PBS clip) I'm shocked we don't make the healines every day. Exactly what defines frequently? Do you realize how many people, water wells, streams, lakes, ponds and overall acres encompass the drilling units of 52,700 natural gas wells? If it was such a detrimental process surely we would know with certainty by now.

John- How many of these 450,209 operating gas wells are deep both verticaly and horizontaly? How many of these wells are only shallow vertical wells?Do these gas wells have 6 vertical wells 4,000 feet down with horizontal legs of 5,000 feet in a 5 acre pad? You cannot compare apples to oranges. Where has this type of drilling occured in PA before this? I would like to know so I can visit to see what it looks like now.

I do not disagree with the fact that there is room for improvement with regard to management practices. Marie keeps posting 100% negative things regarding the industry. Her agenda is to place fear in the hearts of as many land-owners as possible. She gives no substance to her posts. She offers no alternatives to the potential problems. We then start this debate over and over agin.

1. It all starts with the lease. If you are interested in leasing your land, make sure you have protections in place. If you don't want a frac farm located 200 feet from your house, don't allow it to happen. You can say absolutely no frac farm or provide guidance in the lease agreement as to the distance you are comfortable with. The problem is everyone in Dimmock signed bioler plate leases that are perfectly legal and the O/G companies are operating within the law. The landowners didn't educate themselves. They didn't know they had leverage. We all have leverage. Before you sign anything know exactly what you are signing. Educate yourself so you can make a good decision. If the lease agreement is not to your liking you don't have to sign it, bottom line.

Isn't this a more realistic message to be communicating ? Education.... Realizing that you as a landowner have more power than you realize.... The value of your gas is immense and the companies will need to bend and accomodate the landowner if they want it... Sign a well balanced lease agreement that is fair from a $$ perspective as well as a protections perspective... Only sign once you are comfortable and only after it has been reviewed by a reputable o?G attorney.

You do not always have control over where they locate the frac farms. This one is on the neighbor's property right on the property line. No consideration was taken by the neighbor nor the gas company.

Also FYI the landowner's control does not always end with the lease. If you think you have no control, that you signed a bad lease and there is no hope, I offer this challenge: when the gas company comes around to firm up the pipeline agreements; surface use agreements; right of way agreements be careful what you sign away. This is the time to step up and negotiate for more. Do not sign their boiler plate surface use agreements and others. Do your research, ask around, get ideas. Return a better document to them. Everyone is telling the landowner that you have to sign these documents or else, but this is your time to negotiate. The industry can only take it anyway of you are unreasonable, negotiating for your wants and needs is not unreasonable. Be mindful that these documents then override your lease. The surface use agreements that the industry is asking you to sign has no protections for the landowners, so this is the time for those that signed bad leases to gain some footing.

John- do you know of any reputable O/G Attorneys in NEPA?

Your best bet as a land owner would be to have an O/G attorney from the western part of the state review your lease agreement. Oil/Gas exploration is not new at all to this area.

My point is you have as much control as you want. Nobody is forcing you to sign a lease. Simply put, if you don't agree with the terms do not sign. Now, if my neighbor signs a lease that is not as protective as my lease agreement that is an entirely another story. I cannot control that, however I will do my best to educate my neighbors. I'm in a land owner group. We have our own lease agreement based on our terms. Nobody is forced to sign it. The gas companies will try to tone it down to make it more beneficial to them of course. The hope is to shoor for the stars and make it as protective and lucrative as possible. We may need to remove some verbiage and the gas companies will need to add some verbiage. Hopefully, we will arrive at a good compromise and a good protective lease agreement. The individual landowners then have a baseline to go by as an agreement and they have the "freedom" to add even more protections as they see fit. You see we all have a choice in this....

John:

Does Western PA have wells of the same size as this area is seeing? That is 5 acre pads with 6 well heads and at least 12 horizontals, 1280 production units?

Marie I saw this article as well, I believe that the gas industry should pay the severance tax but I want the assurance that the tax will be sent to the local municipalities that are the ones that are bearing the expenses of the industry. I do not want it to go to the state's pension obligations or to the General Fund, which is where most of the supporters want it to go to. Also the gas industry is preparing for the severance tax to be passed so in the new leases they are having the severance tax being a deduction from the royalties received. So Beware. Also is it my opinion that the industry is trying to negogiate paying severance tax in return they will get emminent domain with respect to gathering pipelines. They are experiencing resistance to getting their product to market, so they want a way to force it on the land owners.

Not 100% sure. I would think the answer is no. If yu ask me though, the bigger the production unit the better. Much less intrusive from a surface disturbance standpoint. I'd rather have a well pad that can drain 1200 acres than multiple well pads with multiple areas of access to cover the same square acreage. Seems to me not only less invasive, but less chance of potential environmental issues. One of the bigger risks in hydro-fracking is surface contamination. If you consoliodate your efforts to one area as opposed to multiple areas I believe you are minimizing risk. Just my opinion.

blah blah blah

Marie, I'm a registered democrat. It's people like you that are so radical that make me want to switch parties. You are a bitter woman with nothing better to do than try to scare people into believing half truths.

CJK I didn't see your earlier post. I don' know how many of the 450,000+ wells are deep wells. I would venture to say that with the Barnett in TX the vast majority there are horizontal wells comporable to the Marcellus. The same thing with the Haynesville. Actually, I prefer that the Marcellus is a deep shale. It actually reduces the risk factor. The shale is thousands of feet below any aquifier. The bigger danger is surface spills, not hydro fracking itself. None of us can definitively say that waste water does migrate from 6000+feet and into aquifiers. Does it deserve attention ? Yes. Should it be looked into ? Absolutely. Is contamination more likely to occur at the surface via a chemical spill or waste water spill ? I say yes. I think this is where we need to concentrate more, rather than what's happening 6000+ feet under the surface. Also, with regard to methane... PA is loaded with various layers of shale both deep and shallow. Some of the shallow stuff does contain methane. These areas are much more likely to cause methane in water aquifiers than the Marcellus, thus ensuring the casings are adequate are much more of a concern for me than anythng. Not the htdro fracking process in general.

Marie, do you need a couch to lye on ?

John the question I asked was in reference to PA wells, everyone keeps telling me drilling has been going on in PA for a long time. I want to know if the drilling in PA in the past has been the same as what they are doing presently in NEPA. While I agree with you in importance of monitoring the pads for surface spills, there have been no studies as to what is going to happen to all the fracking chemicals that are left in the ground for each fracking. The industry admits that 92% of the fluids used in fracking may not be recovered at the time of fracking. I am not convinced that the fluids will not seek a path at some point into the aquifer or elsewhere and contaminate either drinking water or other waterways. With regards to surface spills the pads being built currently in NEPA are built-up mounds that when flooded will drain into the nearest ditches and then our waterways. There is little to no barriers put up to prevent seepage on these pads. Methane is a whole different issue we are going to see many wells contaminated by methane as a result of drilling and some will be farther than the 1000 feet zone that is regulated. The whole process has so many unknowns, things that should have been researched and thought out before the drill bit hits the ground. Otherwise we will be drilling now and paying dearly later.

Marie won't explain to us how her solar panels are installed or how they are made and with what chemicals the panels are made from. LOL!! She doesn't want to share her PERSONAL experience with us in regards to her panels to help her cause, yet she keeps showing everyone what a radical she is against natural gas b/c it's going to KILL everything and everyone if it doesn't stop! LOL! When you're pumping your gas in the morning if you go to work, ponder for a moment how you are no different than anyone else. LOL!! Some people on this site make me laugh....LOL!!

The TRUTH is you do nothing to help your cause!

CJK. One of the things being tossed around is deep well injection. From a common sense standpoint it makes sense. It basically takes untreated waste water and injects it thousands of feet into the ground. To me. I would rather leave all of the waste water as deep underground as possible. Again, I think you limit your risk. You are more likely to have a spill or some sort of contamination the more you handle the waste water. (transporting it etc.) Also, as I have stated before, the other bigger risk is the low level radio active material and brine that naturally exists at extreme depths. Wouldn't you rather have it remain at these depths rather than extracting it and handling it several times? These naturally existing dangers pose a much bigger threat than the chemicals used in the fracking process. All of the chemicals are also used by millions of people every day in every household throughout America. They are routinely dumped down sink drains. Wouldn't these chemicals also potentially find their way into water aquifiers ? Since everything finds a path of least resistance in my mind it is much more likely that we pose a far bigger danger to ourselves than the material left in the ground at 6000 feet as a result of hydro-fracking.

Also, do you really and truly believe that the big big players in the industry (multi billion dollar) players would risk everything ? Do you think they would take risk after risk with each hydro-fracking, knowing that they are causing death and contamination? This would obviously open them up to potential financial suicide. It just doesn't make any sense to me that they would recklessly open themselves up to this kind of liability. I would like to think they would act responsibly for the most part. I think they do make mistakes and accidents and spills do occur, but I do not believe the O/G Co's are intentionally (with each hydro-fracking) contaminating water aquifiers, lakes, streams, wetlands and poisioning people routinely.

Drilling in PA has been going on for a long time yes. I can't answer your question as to how comparable the early drilling was to today's drilling. I can tell you that if the gas CO is targeting impermeable layers of shale deep underground there is a good probability hydro-fracking has taken place. I would suggest going to Texas and visiting the well sites that are similar to the Marcellus from a geology standpoint. Also, if you do, be sure an visit enough of them to be able to make a well educated decision. Talk to the land owners, check out their properties. Don't make the mistake of reading or hearing about the properties who have had a bad experieince with nat gas exploration and limit yourself to visiting or researching those only. That's the same mistake many are making here in PA. They hear about Dimmock and then assume this is the rule rather than the exception.

Marie, let me share my life story over the past three years. My wife, my 11 year old daughter and I own 27.7 acres of land in NEPA. Currently the gas companies are not very interested in us or anyone around us. This may change in the coming months. Do I hope it does ? Yes, no doubt.

I am currently unemployed. I worked for a student loan company for 14 years before being laid off almost three years ago. I received a package from the company and I used the money to open my own general contracting business. I won a few bids and started doing the jobs. All of a sudden gas prices went from just over $2.00/gallon to over $4.00/gallon. I was travelling 104 miles per day roundtrip on these jobs. I was driving a Dodge Ram 1500 to and from the jobs out of necessity. At 12 miles per gallon I ended up spending over $35.00/day in gas costs. I budgeted for about $20.00/day. $15.00 extra per day adds up over a few months. Following suit was the cost of materials. They nearly doubled. Since I was locked into the bids and I couldn't make changes based on these extenuating circumstances with which I had no control, I pretty much went bankrupt in nine months.

We fell behind on all of our bills. I am two years behind on property taxes, and I struggle to keep the mortgage current. I have sold nearly all of my possessions acquired over the last 15 years. ( I worked very hard for this stuff) I applied for Emergency Unemployment Compensation but was informed that due to my self employed status I did not qualify. I have been actively seeking employment for two years. My credit at this point is so bad that I cannot find a job that pays what it will take to meet my financial obligations. Prior to this my credit score was over 700. I get multiple interviews, second interviews and sometimes even three. Since these companies pull credit as part of the hiring process I get disqulaified. I have been doing odd jobs just to get by. My wife went to work. She saved our home.

In February of 2009 she had a nervous breakdown. On her birthday she attempted suicide. She is doing much better now and I am spending most of my time with her, putting the job search on the back burner until I feel comfortble that she is all better.

Signing a gas lease would ease alot of stress for me and my family. If I wanted to, I could sign right now for $500.00/acre. After taxes that would equate to about $9500.00. This money would come in very handy and ease some of the stress, however it would not be a life changing thing. My point is, yes I could really use the money from a good lease agreement. However, if I was truly all about the money (as you state) wouldn't I have already signed ? I beleive in everything I write in these posts. I am trying to have faith that things will get better for my family. I welcome the day the gas companies come calling with a fair offer, but I will never sacrafice my land or water or income potential by signing a boiler plate lease that offers little protection and is not up to par from a $$$ persepective. I would be doing a great injustice to myself , my family and my neighbors by doing so.

I will continue to educate myself in this process and hopefull the time I spend doing this will help my family and I to sign a lease agreement that is fair and protective.

I didn't have to share this story, and I probably should not have done so. However, I thought it might be useful for you and maybe before you go making blanket statements about people and judging them with little or no knowledge of their circumstances you will think twice.

To John Reed..

I just heard on the NBC news that we are in the worse recession since the 1929 depression. Obviously you have suffered a great deal. Many of us have suffered right along with you. Our present leaders are only trying to correct what the previous leaders have led us into. And the previous leaders are fighting tooth and nail to discredit and wear down the present administration.

Greed is what got us into this mess in the first place.

A lease would help my family immensely right now. But these greedy people locked up the property many years ago because they had information the landowners did not have and could not get so they could make a better choice of lease or not lease those many years ago.

In other words , figuretivily speaking, a noose was put around many land owner's necks by the leaders of many years ago. The greedy folks of today are complaining now because they are afraid of being "called on the carpet" and losing their big bankrolls!

John thank you for sharing. I do not want to minimize your circumstances in any way but I am sure you are aware of many people that are in varying degrees of financial and/or emotional distress the gas industry knows that and they use that to their advantage on many who are not as wise as you have been. That bothers me. They came to this area, all of them planned because we have been economically deprived for a long time and we were not densely populated so there would be less resistance and it worked to their advantage for awhile, but things are changing. People are talking, like this group, and knowledge is being shared, even if at times it seems one-sided. This is why these types of groups are so important because you can have meeting of the minds at your will and not be forced.
Your drive to educate yourself is commendable unfortunately more times than not I am finding people do not do that, and not because they do not want to but because they do not have the time or do not know how to look for it. While you might think that is ignorance I try to look at it differently. We have been a country to be so trusting of the government taking care of us, but it hasn't and will not do a good job of that. It is up to us, all of us to do that. You and I are and the others on this group are just a small piece to the puzzle. We need to share and gather with others, even if we are not on the same page, because somehow we have to find a common ground in the end.
With reference to your statement regarding injection wells and things being better off underground I disagree there is way too much unknown about putting things underground that have the potential to cause major problems and I do not think the risk is worth it. The natural occurring things underground have been there for years with virtually no problems from them, we are now disturbing those natural protections and we have to be very careful in doing so.
When you speak of things people throw down there drains I totally agree, where I disagree is that is no reason or excuse to make matters worse. For years farmers have been blamed for pollution especially of the water ways. I believe the population pollutes more than my farm does on a density basis.

As far as the industry not wanting to take risks, I disagree. I do not think they really give a damn about the damages they cause as long as it does cut down on profits and as long as it does not prevent them from continuing operations. I have witnessed the industry lie over and over again, mislead people over and over again, so I know they can do terrible things and still go to sleep at night.

You are right about visiting all well sites good and bad.. I am planning a trip to Texas and West Virginia to hear both sides. I go to as many meetings as I possibly can, everyday I learn something new about the industry. I keep in close contact with as many neighbors as are willing. But I cannot forget Dimock, I've been there and I will do anything I can to prevent that from happening in my community and I will continue to help the people that are suffering as much as I can. Mark my words there will be many more Dimock's and the industry will also be affecting many people downstream such as those in Harrisburg and Philly when there waters become polluted from our practices and by then the damage will be extensive. They will all be wondering how this could have possibly happened.

I agree, they mislead and even lie. I do not however, believe they would intentionally and routinely allow posions to make their way into water aquifiers and potentially open themselves up to the incredible consequences if they were found guilty. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it never happened or will never happen again. I think these instances are extremely few and far between. They should be held accountable and continue to work towards new ways to limit these instances. When you take your trip to TX and WV I beleive you will find much more positive than negative.

John,
You seem like a reasonable person. I also do not believe that the business intentionally allows poisons into the water. I know they don't.

In regard to Dimock, which so many people love to bring up, the problem (if there was much of one) was not caused by the frac process at all. This seems to escape most people. Methane in drinking water is not caused by a frac, it is another issue altogether.

The landman, however, is the person who will lie more often than not. In addition, I have found that they are not just lying, but are not educated in PA law and end up telling people Texas law. And that is just apples compared to oranges.

I hope you get a decent lease, John, and you would be best served to get into a landowners group where there is protection in numbers. The best leases have come out of the groups.

At a farm just north of Little Marsh there is a gas well in a swampy area that bubbled thru water. An attempt was made to separate the water from the gas so it could be used to provide gas for the house.

I have no idea when that well was drilled but apparently there was not enough gas there to be piped away for sale. But it was never sealed off. It was still bubbling away about 1972.

Here is how they separated the gas from the water. A barrel was placed near the well. The gas and water was piped into that barrel. Another plastic pipe was attached to the top most part of that barrel and was laid out to the house. The water collected in the bottom of the barrel and when it reached a certain level it was forced out thru another outlet by the gas pressure that collected in the top of the barrel.

The biggest problem was that sometimes water vapor collected in the pipe to the house and froze. That could have been prevented if that particular section had been buried in the ground like the rest of the pipe was. If I recall correctly, there was enough gas to heat the house in fine shape and for cooking.

My sister and brother in law lived there for a few years until the moved to Florida in june of 1972 just ahead of the hurricane Agness, I believe it was.

Yes, I'm in the Columbia County Land Owners Coalition.

Guess Dimock is a bigger issue than many of you think. The Governor showed up there today. Heard Cabot was busy cleaning up everything.
With regards to not poisoning our water, what they fail to do to safeguard it, in my eyes is intentional, even though it is arguable. I have a picture of one of the fracking farms where the frac water was being transported via pipeline and they had one of the joints wrapped in saran wrap like material to prevent leakage, it wasn't working.
I have heard that the DImock wells that were contaminated with methane are having methane removers placed in their homes to remediate the damage caused by Cabot. I guess there was someone who believed that the fracking of the well resulted in the methane release. Yes fracking can and will continue to cause methane to seek a path of least resistance and our wells are the perfect path for this. You will be seeing more and more of this.

I guess I am confused. I am under the impression that the methane is from shallower shales that were not even fracked. The Marcellus in that area is at a depth of 6-7 thousand feet and in some areas even deeper. I highly doubt the methan is a direct result of hydro fracking. Much more likely from a shallower shale that was not even fracked.

What everyone also has to remember is that much of the work being done by the industry is actually being done by subcontractors. These subcontractors, because they are independent contractors, are not necessarily doing the work up to the standards of the gas company. Hence mistakes happen more often and more frequently.

The pressure exerted while fracing opens up different paths for the methane, one of which could be a well. How far down do they claim they are casing the wells? If it is just below the aquifer, as I understand it, when they are drilling they create alot of pressure and this pressure releases pockets of methane that make their way into the aquifer and then seek another exit path which can be a well.

Gas company plans to fix methane in water in Dimock (article)
http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/gas-company-plans-to-fix-methane-in-water-in-dimock-1.711611
"Cabot Oil and Gas Corp. submitted the plans to the Department of Environmental Protection late Wednesday - the deadline set by the department in November when it determined improper casing and excessive pressure in Cabot's gas wells were to blame for the high levels of methane in drinking water in Dimock Twp."

This is a perfect example of why the lease language is so important. When these leases were signed, they were most likely boilerplate leases used by the company that give no protections to the landowner.

No one signs those anymore. At least if they stop to think before putting pen to paper.

In the case of Dimock, it would have been good for EVERYONE if water testing had been done before to establish a baseline, then it would be possible to know exactly what extent was due to natural methane movement.

Now Cabot has no choice but to deal with the problem (which may or may not totally be their fault). I am not taking sides with Cabot here, just pointing out that they would have a better chance if they had pre-drilling water tests. It has become the norm to test all wells within a certain area before drilling now, so cases like this will become LESS COMMON.

I agree 100%. The only company in my area is drilling three test wells this year. Each one will have water testing for every water well within a 1 square mile radius. They have received negative press in CO, so I think they are being proactive rather than reactive.

I have heard several different stories regarding Methane in Dimmock. Bottom line is it looks like Cabot is at least making an attempt to be responsible even though it is not known with certainty whether they caused it or if it was natural migration. Again, I think it's important to not make hasty judgements or have preconceived notions about what the future holds. With the number of natural gas wells in the US currently producing we are bound to see things like this from time to time. I believe that is exactly what we are seeing. An unfortunate ocurrence which happens from time to time.

Here's something we might be able find out to get a better understanding of what really happened.

Does anyone know if Methane is the only issue ? If it is I would think it is more than likely a result of natural migration from a shallower layer of shale. If the water wells in question are contaminated with radiation, methane, brine or chemicals used in the fracking process then maybe it was a result of fracking.

The migration was a direct result of the drilling and fracking process. What layer it came from is irrelevant. Do you really think that when you drill and frack that you only disturb the deep layers and not the shallow ones?

Cabot only helped in Dimock because they were required to. I hope you are correct about "Less Common" and "unfortunate occurence" because I believe you will see more of this as drilling goes on, in fact there have been two more additional cases that I know of already in Bradford County. But the companies involved have tried to keep them out of the limelight.

Where is it documented that it was a direct result of the drilling and fracking process ? This is purely speculation. I've heard several sides of the story. Too bad nobody had their water tested prior to drilling activity. As this evolves and water testing is done going forward we may get a better picture.

CJK. Where did the brine and fracking chemicals migrate? Just the methane found it's way to the aquifier?

John: It is purely speculation that it won't migrate to the aquifer also. While some argue that it is speculation because it it very hard to prove and the industry knows that, but the fact remains that the level of methane steadily increased after drilling in the area and in some casess caused wells to explode. As documented by the DEP. This is not speculation. Just because there was methane release does not mean that there had to be a release of brine and fracking chemicals, this could come later or not at all. One does not have a direct correlation to the other.

95% of this thread has pertained to the chemicals used in the hydro-fracking process and the "poisions" our aquifers especially in Dimmock have been subjected to.

So what is your point, John? Was this thread started for another purpose? What else would you like to discuss? Start the topic and we can contribute I am sure.

My point is I thought you guys were much more concerned with the hydro-fracking chemicals (poisons) that are polluting the aquifiers in Dimmock. That's what 95% of this thread has been dedicatd to. I am not trained in recognizing natural migration or any other migration for that matter. I do think it is relevent for this particular thread, that none of the fracking chemicals have shown up in any of the articles regarding contamination of wells in Dimmock. All I have seen is methane migration. My point all along has been the real danger is the naturally ocurring elements pose a far greater danger than the fracking chemicals. This further justifies that for now...

John is correct on this.
Nothing in Dimock had to do with frac actions or chemicals. The only thing found in the water was methane, either already in the water previously or now in there because the well concrete was not done correctly.
So anyone using the word Dimock and the word frac together is trying to make up stories.

rfs- While you are correct with the Dimock wells regarding the frac chemicals, the action of drilling and fracing caused this I never said the fracking chemicals showed up anywhere in the wells of Dimock. But I do have a picture of frac water being transported in above ground piping that had plastic wrap around a joint that was leaking. Which is the danger that john feels is most dangerous, surface contamination. I also have first hand knowledge of a well out in Western PA that was contaminated with fracking chemicals as I have said before. So although I have not heard of any near yet, it has happened.
In the possible future when and if the fracking fluids migrate to the aquifer or elsewhere, how are we going to determine what well drilling caused what leakage? All of the companies will be blaming each other. I say that each company should be required to put a traceable disclosed ingredient so that it is identifibe to that company, then there will be no questions.

Ruby: Tha family was the Hilyer Family in McKean County. The reason the DEP never verified it was because they did not have their water tested prior to drilling as required. In the end it was found that the company improperly installed the casings used to protect the aquifer, then the chemicals came out through the casings. Their water was so bad that it burned their skin when they took a shower. They tried to get an attorney to represent them but the gas company drilling in the area had engaged every attorney within a two hour drive from their home, when contacted by this family every attorney claimed a conflict of interest in representing him, this is not unusual. Not only was their water source contaminated (spring) but the quantity of water the spring produced was dimished substantially. Both DEP and Penn State were notified of this.

url for article: http://www.ridgwayrecord.com/content/view/144018/27/
Gibbs Hill homeowners lose water supply after fracking
Monday, 11 August 2008



Steve Hilyer retired for bed at 3 a.m., Wednesday July 30. But before doing so, he took a drink of water. His water came from a natural artesian spring system that ran from his springhouse on the steep hill on the property above his Gibbs Hill home. The week before, he had begun hearing the oil workers contracted by Seneca Resources Inc, fracking new gas wells on that same hill every morning from 4-8 a.m. Two months earlier, Scott Pruder, a Seneca Resources contractor and landsman had come to the door and informed him that the company was going to drill another well on the hill. He wanted to learn the location of Hilyer’s spring system. Hilyer showed the contractor the spring on his map, and warned him that the 750 foot-800 foot well proposed was too close to the spring, and that it would likely destroy his spring if placed there.

Hilyer awoke at 6 a.m. to his Gibbs Hill neighbor Clint Yates at the door saying something was wrong with their water. Yates had taken a sip of water only to have it burn his mouth. Hilyer also took a sip felt the burning, and later developed an immediate headache, he said. They called Seneca Resources and the Pennsylvania DEP, and that day, a local DEP agent came and tested the water, which seemed to have a heavy briny taste and smelled like natural gas, according to Hilyer and his neighbors. The agent informed the homeowners not to use the water.
That day cases of bottled drinking water were delivered, and on Friday, DEP installed a 2,000 gallon tank of non-potable to use temporarily to wash, or to flush the toilet with. That delivery system has ceased running two or three times since, and had to be refilled, and or repaired.
Hilyer is furious that despite his warnings, a well was drilled so close to his own water supply, and that the fracking may have destroyed a pristine, cold, and beautiful spring that had been there for hundreds of years. Hilyer fears that a permanent loss of the spring-fed system will devalue his property, and that in the future he will have to pay for the additional electricity costs of pumping a well, a costly treatment system, and for the system’s ongoing maintenance.
“A pristine, beautiful cold spring is now totally destroyed,” Hilyer said. “Now I have a tank of junk water, and I’m living off creek water and boiled water.”
Next door, Donna Burger and her fiancé Clint Yates have put lots of loving care into the fine home purchased four years ago. Having an endless supply of fresh, clean, cold water was an added plus in their decision to purchase the home, and hadn’t given them any trouble even in the driest of weather, Burger said.
But right after showering Wednesday morning, Donna Burger felt burning in her lungs and had immediate difficulty with her sinuses, which lasted several days, Burger said. As many as six days after the incident occurred, symptoms persisted, she said. Burger termed Seneca’s continuing efforts to get the tank of non-potable water running a not-so-amusing “comedy of errors.” Burger also fears that the drilling operations may have contaminated their spring forever. Visiting the remote hillside site, Burger said she found the usually plentiful holding tank lined with silt and its level lower than usual.
DEP public relations officer Frieda Tarbell said that her agency is “closely monitoring the situation” on Gibbs Hill. But, it’s still far too early in the investigation to tell whether or not the spring was permanently contaminated, or whether Seneca will be required to drill a permanent well for the homeowners, Tarbell said. The water sample analysis process generally takes 2-3 weeks to yield results, she said. DEP has taken several samples of the spring water, and it seemed to be running slightly better in the later samples, but until DEP completes its investigation, there remains the possibility that the spring still could be restored, Tarbell said.
According to the Pennsylvania Oil and Gas Act, companies that drill within 1,000 feet of a water supply have “presumptive liability” for damages if that private water supply is impacted. That means that the company is legally obligated to restore, or replace the residents’ water supply, Tarbell said.
“Our goal is for them to have water until we can get a better handle on whether it is a temporary situation. If the spring cannot be restored, we could have the company drill a well,” Tarbell said. In the meantime, DEP has ordered Seneca Resources to provide the homeowners with bottled water to drink, and with a temporary supply of non-drinkable water.
“The company is continuing to look into the situation to determine what happened, and to monitor the water quality,” said National Fuel spokesperson Julie Cox, speaking on behalf of her company’s subsidiary, Seneca Resources Inc. “Based on past practice with drilling operations, it’s expected (the spring) will return to the level it was before this incident,” Cox added.
“I think what we’ve shown is that when we find out there is a problem, we’ve offered a remedy for the landowners.” Meanwhile, “it’s not a forgone conclusion that Seneca’s drilling is what caused the problem,” Cox said. “That still has to be determined.” About Hilyer’s concerns that his warnings weren’t heeded, Cox responded: “Obviously as a general rule we try hard to work with landowners to come up with the best possible plan when we’re working to access our mineral rights.”
James Hughes, who lives a little more than a mile away on Gibbs Hill, suffered similar problems when, in June, 2006, drilling operations polluted his pond and dried up his private water supply, and that of his neighbor, Leonard K. Nelson, who owns a hunting camp. Hughes has filed a civil lawsuit against Seneca Resources Inc, claiming $50,000 in damages stemming the water problems and from having four well sites operating on his farm. Seneca Resources provided Hughes bottled, and nonpotable water, and 45 days later dug him a permanent well. The test well they initially dug caught fire, sending flames high into the air, and had to be capped off. The new well had to burn off natural gas for several months before it could be used, Hughes said. The civil trial is expected to take place next May.
DEP’s office in Meadville has been setting new records every year for the number of permits applied for, and issued, Tarbell said. In June alone in McKean County DEP issued permits for 58 oil wells, 10 combination oil and gas wells, and 9 gas wells, according to the OGM SPUD report on DEP’s website. From 2000-2007, 3,248 new wells were drilled in McKean County, making it the county with the highest rate of drilling activity in the state, Tarbell said.

Thanks Marie for posting the two news articles. Unfortunately I think we are going to be seeing more and more of these reports. These people say that DEP is not even testing the water for the fracking chemicals. What is going on here, why is this so? It is also interesting that the advice being given is for people within a few miles of a drill site to get their water tested. I think there can and will be damage that can and will go for those distances.

Another article containing Hilyer information and others:
http://www.catskillcitizens.org/update_sept_27.pdf

What laws need changed, Marie? What power do you want back to landowners? Who lost their power of ownership of their property--besides when the state or federal government takes your property b/c it's deemed useful for the greater good?

When you get the ball rolling, follow it!

Where are all the stories of the successful wells? Oh, that's right, the only stories that grab headlines are ones that portray the evil O&G companies as environment destroyers.

I've gotta stop looking at this ridiculous post....It gets crazier and crazier.

J & J Lukens- I have talked to two people so far that have had success stories with wells. I have talked with others, about four that won't speak at all because they signed confidentiality agreements that say they cannot speak to anyone.
While I do agree that there are probably the same if not more successful well stories. I do not want to be the next unsuccessful one and if I am one of the unfortunate ones, will you buy my land and/or supply my land with water from your clean well for all my needs forever?

Why are you so pessimistic? Don't sign a lease then! I wouldn't drive your car anymore either b/c the risks of getting in a crash are pretty high--have you seen the stats on that! When I do get a lease, maybe I will buy your place. You going to let me have the minerals too? How many acres do you have? Where do you live? County only please. What are you using for your water supply? This might work out pretty well if the solution is that all that I need to do is buy your place.