I am not sure which version I have. I have seen two of them. They are both about 16-17 pages. They both look real nice till you actually read them. They are filled with window dressing!! It is full of loopholes. The PUGH clause loophole I talked about earlier as well as the Force Majeure Clause that allows them to extend the lease "by reason of inability to obtain or to use equipment or Material or by operation of Force Majeure" So as long as their equipment is tied up elsewhere they can extend the lease. This lease is rediculous. I heard so many people that are not in the industry talk so highly of it because they do not fully understand these terms so they do not know what to look for. However, if you understand the industry then when you read it, you quickly realize that it is nowhere near how it is represented! They must do a great sales job!!!!
There are still FAR more landowner benefits in an ALOV style lease than there is in the WishGard lease, everyone. The WishGard lease is the basic, O & G friendly, starting-point lease. Remember, in the WishGard lease, you SIGN AWAY all rights to have the lease terminated under failure to fulfill implied covenants, and also sign away your right to have disputes heard on a LEGAL basis...
Before signing with WishGard, ask the agent to tell you, as a landowner, just ONE reason to sign now with Wishgard. Nowhere in these forums so far has any WishGard agent stated what benefit will be gained by signing NOW with WishGard instead of waiting a while to see what happens in the area shortly...
At least the ALOV/Buckeye lease has some type of protection in that a company cannot simply drill a shallow well land in order to "tie up" land - they have to at least apply for a permit to drill a deep well. Every permit expires - how long does an operator have to commence operations before the permit expires? This is a protection that many leases do not have - does Wishgard have this protection? Also, a shallow, vertical well (ie Clinton) will not cover all 640 acres in a unit - it might only cover 40 acres. Therefore there is no need for the land owners of the remaining 600 acres to make a written demand because they are not receiving paying quantities via the shallow well......hence the lease expires for them. It is obvious that some feel very threatened by the ALOV/Buckeye lease and will do whatever it takes to degrade it, even if it requires sophistry. From my research I've discovered Bob Rea is a normal guy (a farmer like many on this form) who created a thorough, well written lease (with the help prominent legal counsel) and many in the industry are not happy about that. They "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" in order to reduce his effect in an effort to advance their own agenda. I believe the people on this form are sensible people and will figure this out for themselves.
Brad, I am sure that they will figure it out. Unfortunately when it is too late for them. The clause that you refer to is called the Pugh clause and I will give you exact quotes from the buckeye lease as soon as I get time. yes Wishgard has a Pugh clause and no it doesn't have wording in it that opens loopholes up for the driller.
Edward, I would like to point out that the buckeye mineral lease also has an arbitration clause because those people that have sense realize they don't want to fight a multi-billion dollar oil company in court!!! Get over that rediculous idea. Go sign your own lease on your couple acres and find something else to do.
The implied covenant says basically says that the landowner can't sue the oil and gas company if another company drills in the area and they don't immediately drill on their acreage to protect from drainage. This is done particularly in a package acreage because they can't protect every last property. Particularly when acreage is scattered around and not in perfect droppable blocks.
I'm not concerned about having an "open discussion", but I am concerned when facts are misrepresented. Can you provide an actual example of a better Pugh Clause for the "many" leases that you referred to?
No need to provide the pugh clause excerpt from Buckeye Lease - I have the lease. I would be interested in seeing the pugh clause from a Wishgard lease - the lease that individuals in Trumbull/Ashtabula are actually signing. Can you provide that?
You seem to have an issue with me only having a few acres to sign up...am I taking it that you're saying small landowners are unimportant to WishGard???
Still the same as it's been throughout these different forums on this site - you CAN NOT give even ONE reason that landowners will benefit from signing now with WishGard. Not ONE!
Brad, there are several o/g lawyers nationwide that have seen the ALOV lease and they will agree with you one hudred percent. Adam Thomas has a excuse, he is a no good land flipper that works for wishgard if you already did not know, and the other guy Mark simplely does not know what he is talking about, come on Mark back your statement up!!! Brad dont waste your time on these two.
Brad...I have a copy of the WishGard lease...the Pugh Clause in the addendums page offers no protection to the landowners. TONS of ways for O & G companies to use loopholes in it for their advantage (i.e. - they'd be able to hold up to 40% of lease land forever even if that land is not included in a drilling unit...). The WishGard lease is, simply, about the worse possible lease a landowner could sign to benefit themselves - O & G company friendly, many loopholes in it, and unable to be LEGALLY challenged once signed.
Adam - you KEEP saying "all leases have this..." about every problem I and/or anyone else has ever pointed out with WishGard leases...SHOW examples!!!!
You are implying that the "force majeure" clause allows the driller to use virtually any excuse to extend the lease - it does not. The very definition/understanding of "force majeure" is that the operators inability to commence is based on an unforeseen event outside of that operator's control (war, natural disasters, moratorium, etc.). That is perfectly understandable and if I was the driller I would want the same. These clauses are not intended to apply to excuse failures to perform for reasons within the control of the operator. Excuses would not hold up in a court of law. The operator would need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that material or equipment could not be obtained because of "force majeure". Still waiting on the pugh clause excerpt??????
And as far as the WishGard lease goes, I DO have a copy of it! Unfortunately, I'm not able to post it on here, but CAN send it to anyone who wants it (along with the many problems I have found with it!) via email. Contact me at edgan75@hotmail.com if anyone is interested in SEEING why Adam is on this site (Now in Ashtabula's thread, previously in the Trumbull thread, among others on this site) unable to post as requested by myself ONE benefit to a landowner to even consider WishGard as a real option to leasing!
It doesn't matter whether you as a landowner have a lot of acreage or just a little (I have only 7 acres)...you have a valuable commodity! Why waste what you already have only to allow WishGard to profit from it? Doesn't it make more sense to wait things out a little bit, learn as much as you can about what options landowners have, and end up making far more money, better royalties, and a lease that has better terms that protect your land and the land that surrounds you? YOU ultimately have to live on your land...WishGard is interested only in making money and then moving on.
The problem with the clause titled "Force Majeur" under the buckeye lease is that it includes more than "force Majeur" within the lease. It states, and I quote" Should Lessee be prevented from complying with any express, or implied covenant of this lease (except payment of money), from conducting drilling (including fracturing) or reworking operations thereon or from producingoil and gas therefrom by reason of inability to obtain or to use equipment or material, or by operation of Force Majeur, any sfederal or state law or any order, rule or regulation of government authority ("force majeur event") then while so prevented Lessee's obligation to comply with such covenant shall be suspended, and Lessee shall not be liable for such damages for failure to comply therewith, and this lease shall be extended while and so long as as Lessee is prevented by any such force majeur event from conductind drilling or reworking operations on or from producing oil or gas from Leased premise.
This is a HUGE LOOPHOLE that I have heard is being used in other areas. It is a loophole under the truest definition of the term.
My Intentions are purely to point out issues with some of these leases that the "average person" that is not fully versed in this industry can know what to look for. I will absolutely agree that NONE of these leases are "PERFECT". Some are alot better than others and following like sheep is not the best option for people. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and make whatever the best EDUTATED decision is for you. You and your families are the ones that is inevitably left with the results of your decision.
The force majeur clause is included in EVERY oil and gas lease I have read to date. It is necessary for the drillers to protect themselves. However, they are often times manipulated to include language that creats loopholes that include things that ae NOT beyond the driller's control as the example I have just given.
Are either of these the draft lease off the ALOV website? Are either of them a final landowner's copy that was signed and paid and filed with a county recorder? The final leases that have been signed and accepted by CHK are not on the ALOV website and I'd like to compare what was accepted with what they were asking for in their draft lease. I wonder what on their "wish list" they actually got accepted by CHK.
I have never said that smaller landowners are not important. They absolutely are. My point is that I learned a long time ago to never let the guy sitting at the penny slot machine tell me how to bet my money. You are not looking at "life changing" money like many people are. Therefore your risks are alot lower than alot of other people.
Adam...when will you realize that each time you post, you show yourself to be even MORE ignorant about leases???!!!
DIRECTLY from your quote "..., and this lease shall be extended while and so long as as Lessee is prevented by any such force majeur event from conductind drilling or reworking operations on or from producing oil or gas from Leased premise." This means the lease may only be extended by Force Majuer events. As you so thoughtfully bolded in your post, inability to obtain materials, etc. is considered SEPARATE from Force Majuer.
WHY is it that WishGard has one of the most inadequate leases available, yet you try SO hard to belittle other, far better leases from others?
Telling me to "lease my couple of acres and find something else to do with my time" certainly sounds to ME as if you have no respect for small landowners!
The fact that I AM a small landowner, Adam, just means that whether I'm looking at life-changing money or not, it IS important to me nonetheless! The fact that I will still LIVE on my land means that I'll do whatever I can to make sure it remains not just profitable, but livable!
For me to see the obvious scam that flippers such as yourself try pulling and NOT do anything about it only hurts myself in the long run!
Again, I'm STILL waiting for you to post just ONE valid reason for ANYONE, large or small landowner, to consider signing with WishGard...
"Inability to obtain or use......." per the result of force majeur. Do you really think that if given supplier cannot supply a given material, apart from reasons of force majeur, that it qualifies as "inability"? There is always another supplier or piece of equipment that can get the job done. Changing suppliers and equipment failures are a cost reality of doing business......they do not fall under "force majeur". I think there is a big difference between your definition of "inability" and a court of law's definition under a force majeur clause. I am done debating this issue with someone who does not interpret the clause in context and is flippant with words like "inability" . Again, the sensible people on this form can figure this out for themselves.
The major use of Force Majeur in the O & G industry actually won't ever be the "Act of God" type of catastrophy...it'll be government regulations and laws (such as New York state's ban on fracking)...
The ability to find parts, equipment, etc. you're right about - there's no way it'll ever be considered Force Majeur...
My guess as to why it would be in the Force Majeur section could be if government regulations are enacted that don't allow use of such materials as, say, compressor stations, fracking fluids, etc., then that inability to obtain or use would fall under Force Majeur...
Edward, can you fill me in on how find on odnr website, the logan well. I thought you were the one to explain it from one of the other discussions but cant find where it was. I am familiar with the well search site just need the order. Thanks
Sure...the easiest way is to go to the well search section, in the search parameters for the App.issued date, enter first: =Equal then: 5/18/2011 then in the County enter first: =Equal then: Trumbull , then for permit or plug enter Permit. It should pop up as the only permit found for these parameters!
Saw this online today. If anyone is interested..Eastern Ashtabula area.. www.washingtonpaylawyer.com is holding three (3) upcoming seminars in the Eastern Ashtabula area. Jefferson on Jan10, Williamsfield on Jan14th and Geneva on Jan 16th. I have never attended any of their meetings nor know much about them (except 8% of the signing bonus) but plan on going just for the info. They are starting to form a group and I believe they are the only one in my area. If anyone out there knows of a group for the Jefferson/Dorset/Richmond area let me know.
I talked to Buckeye Mineral/Shale today and was told they are not sending out informational packages/sign up info to Eastern Ashtabula as they are not in this area yet. They expect to be in the upcoming months. Any info on formed groups for Ashtabula Cty would be greatly appreciated. Thx Also, I will pass on any Wishgard recommendations..
Bill, on the top of the page says Buckeye is holding a meeting on the 12 of Jan at 7 in Pierpont at the firehall. Dont know true it is does anyone know for sure.
I called them (Buckeye Shale/Mineral) yesterday to find out why I have not received my information package since I contacted them in December to sign up. Was told it was because they have not came to our area yet for sign ups but eventually will. I think that Bob Rea may be there as a guest but am not sure. Perhaps another post member can shed more light.
I have sat in on a few of the early meetings when the group was formed. They have fliers posted and being handed out , posted on the firehall billboard as well.
Ok nothing down here in the sw side of the county was posted and was just curious, glad i found this sight otherwise would not have known about it. Still alot of people in the dark about all of this. Thanks
Here is the pugh clause that is on the website of the group you talked of. It says these are examples of clause that they have negotiated. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with this Pugh clause?
I cut and pasted it directly from their site.
If the Leasehold covered by this Oil and Gas Lease covers more than sixty (60) net acres and more than sixty percent (60%) of the Leasehold covered by this Oil and Gas Lease is not included in the production unit established by Lessee, this Lease shall automatically terminate two (2) years (“Extended Term”) after the expiration of the primary term or any extension provided herein, insofar and only insofar as to all Leasehold outside a production unit established by Lessee for a well, provided if the Lessee, its successors or assigns shall be engaged in operations for the drilling, completing or testing of a new well or wells or the drilling, completing, testing, or deepening of an existing well or wells on the leased premises or on lands with which said Leasehold or a portion hereof have been included in a production unit, then this Oil and Gas Lease shall continue in full force and effect until such drilling, completing, testing or deepening operations have been completed.
Thanks,
This is a good example of why I advocate a good Oil/Gas attorney (not a divorce, DUI attorney etc) to go over the lease that is presented by anyone. As an ordinary person I am lost on this verbiage. If anyone has specifics with this the post good/bad from Adam please post it. I am going to one the Washingpalawyers meetings next week and will take it with me for clarification. Again I am new to the the leasing game and want any and all information I can receive to protect myself and my property.
If I had 100 acres under a Wishgard lease and 50 acres fell under production (where royalties were received) , would the lease be terminated for the remaining 50 acres (that were not in "production zone") after the primary or extended term expired? Does Wishgard allow any reasons for the extension of the lease?
There is a article in todays Ashtabula County Star Beacon news paper , talks about Chesapeake Energy working with the county on emergency planning , and the well to be drilled in Richmond township.
I realize it is certainly possible to have a pugh clause specifying that any amount non-unitized land cannot be extended beyond the primary or secondary term. I was simply asking Adam if the Wishgard lease has this clause, since he is so quick to belittle the ALOV/Buckeye lease. Obviously he has not answered the question, so I'm assuming his answer would not be satisfactory to some on this form.
The ALOV lease is certainly not 100% in favor of the landowner, giving zero protection to the lessee - no lease is! It is admirable that you are aiming for a more comprehensive lease, but friend you may be left "high and dry" if you're too dogmatic and unrealistic. Landowners need to use discretion in separating the essentials from the secondaries. Anyone can pick apart any lease with an eyeglass. The fact is, when looking at the "big picture", there are presently no other leases that offer more protection to the landowner than the ALOV lease. Maybe that will change per the result of YOU and this form, Mark.......I hope it does! :)
Nobody is saying that we are "tied" to ALOV/Buckeye - individual land groups can certainly use their lease as the baseline. I am sure Buckeye is not opposed to the idea of making changes to their lease for each group that they represent. Whether or not the lessee will accept these changes is a different story. All I am saying is that the Buckeye lease is the best "baseline" lease going right now, and they are offering their services for much less than other companies like Wishgard, Tri-State Energy, and Palawyers. At this point I see no better option than individual land groups organizing within each township, gathering contiguous land if possible, and developing their own unique lease per the use of Buckeye Mineral and their "baseline" lease. This seems to be the most logical route to go at this point and I think Buckeye Mineral is thinking the same thing. I don't think they are going to organize the whole county with scattered individual parcels.......that isn't as appealing to the lessee. It is up to the landowners of Ashtabula as to whether they want to sit around and wait on a County wide group to develop, or if they want to be proactive and start their own group.
Brad, The answer to your question is that yes the other fifty acres would be relaeased and not held under production by the fifty acres of a 100 acre parcel being included in a producing unit. The lessee would have the option to extend the other fifty acres if they drilled in the 5 year primary term and they wanted to pay the extension price on the non-producing 50 acres or, although unlikely, technically the entire hundred acres if they chose to do so in hopes of drilling to deeper depths within that extension period.
The problem with this site is that many people on this site do not realize that a lease is a business deal. You can put any restriction in a lease including that they have to level the snow if an agent of lessee disturbs it. However, it is not practical and therefore a waste of time to write it as a lease has to be beneficial to both parties. If a driller is unwilling or unable to operate under those terms, it becomes a waste of time. A number of people seem to think that company "A" will agree to the same terms accross the board, in any circumstance. It is well publicized that there are landowners that gambled and won in certain places. These landowners and/or the companies that represented them, will tell everyone that listens. It is self promotion. However you must also keep in mind that the person that gambled and held out for terms they wanted or higher up-front money and held out too long and units were built around them or wells were drilled and it was found that area was not good, doesn't "brag" to anyone about how smart they were. They are VERY quiet about how smart they were when those decisions cost them alot of money.
The thing people on this site need to realize is that the information available in an area at that time will make or break negotiations and offers. Perhaps someday there will be offers of $10k an acre and 25% royalties in this area. However, they may never be. We do not know what this area holds yet and when they find out, it will either help us as landowners in this area or hurt us. The amount a particular individual wants to gamble is up to them but do not let some of these guys on here convince you that the only thing between you and HUGE money on leases is time because with time comes information and that information is what truly dictates the "value" of our properties and amount of leverage we have. I wish all landowners good luck with your decisions and hope that you remember that your decisions will effect you. not the people on this site. Do your homework and make the decision that is right for you and your family.
Adam Thomas
Finnbear,
I am not sure which version I have. I have seen two of them. They are both about 16-17 pages. They both look real nice till you actually read them. They are filled with window dressing!! It is full of loopholes. The PUGH clause loophole I talked about earlier as well as the Force Majeure Clause that allows them to extend the lease "by reason of inability to obtain or to use equipment or Material or by operation of Force Majeure" So as long as their equipment is tied up elsewhere they can extend the lease. This lease is rediculous. I heard so many people that are not in the industry talk so highly of it because they do not fully understand these terms so they do not know what to look for. However, if you understand the industry then when you read it, you quickly realize that it is nowhere near how it is represented! They must do a great sales job!!!!
Jan 2, 2012
Ed Ganelli
There are still FAR more landowner benefits in an ALOV style lease than there is in the WishGard lease, everyone. The WishGard lease is the basic, O & G friendly, starting-point lease. Remember, in the WishGard lease, you SIGN AWAY all rights to have the lease terminated under failure to fulfill implied covenants, and also sign away your right to have disputes heard on a LEGAL basis...
Before signing with WishGard, ask the agent to tell you, as a landowner, just ONE reason to sign now with Wishgard. Nowhere in these forums so far has any WishGard agent stated what benefit will be gained by signing NOW with WishGard instead of waiting a while to see what happens in the area shortly...
Jan 2, 2012
Brad
At least the ALOV/Buckeye lease has some type of protection in that a company cannot simply drill a shallow well land in order to "tie up" land - they have to at least apply for a permit to drill a deep well. Every permit expires - how long does an operator have to commence operations before the permit expires? This is a protection that many leases do not have - does Wishgard have this protection? Also, a shallow, vertical well (ie Clinton) will not cover all 640 acres in a unit - it might only cover 40 acres. Therefore there is no need for the land owners of the remaining 600 acres to make a written demand because they are not receiving paying quantities via the shallow well......hence the lease expires for them. It is obvious that some feel very threatened by the ALOV/Buckeye lease and will do whatever it takes to degrade it, even if it requires sophistry. From my research I've discovered Bob Rea is a normal guy (a farmer like many on this form) who created a thorough, well written lease (with the help prominent legal counsel) and many in the industry are not happy about that. They "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" in order to reduce his effect in an effort to advance their own agenda. I believe the people on this form are sensible people and will figure this out for themselves.
Jan 2, 2012
Adam Thomas
Edward, I would like to point out that the buckeye mineral lease also has an arbitration clause because those people that have sense realize they don't want to fight a multi-billion dollar oil company in court!!! Get over that rediculous idea. Go sign your own lease on your couple acres and find something else to do.
The implied covenant says basically says that the landowner can't sue the oil and gas company if another company drills in the area and they don't immediately drill on their acreage to protect from drainage. This is done particularly in a package acreage because they can't protect every last property. Particularly when acreage is scattered around and not in perfect droppable blocks.
Jan 2, 2012
Brad
Mark,
I'm not concerned about having an "open discussion", but I am concerned when facts are misrepresented. Can you provide an actual example of a better Pugh Clause for the "many" leases that you referred to?
Jan 2, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Mark have you talked to washingtonpalawyers yet? If so what do you think of them.
Jan 2, 2012
Brad
Adam,
No need to provide the pugh clause excerpt from Buckeye Lease - I have the lease. I would be interested in seeing the pugh clause from a Wishgard lease - the lease that individuals in Trumbull/Ashtabula are actually signing. Can you provide that?
Jan 2, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Adam
You seem to have an issue with me only having a few acres to sign up...am I taking it that you're saying small landowners are unimportant to WishGard???
Still the same as it's been throughout these different forums on this site - you CAN NOT give even ONE reason that landowners will benefit from signing now with WishGard. Not ONE!
Jan 2, 2012
Craig Stull
Brad, there are several o/g lawyers nationwide that have seen the ALOV lease and they will agree with you one hudred percent. Adam Thomas has a excuse, he is a no good land flipper that works for wishgard if you already did not know, and the other guy Mark simplely does not know what he is talking about, come on Mark back your statement up!!! Brad dont waste your time on these two.
Jan 2, 2012
Brad
Noted....thanks Craig.
Jan 2, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Brad...I have a copy of the WishGard lease...the Pugh Clause in the addendums page offers no protection to the landowners. TONS of ways for O & G companies to use loopholes in it for their advantage (i.e. - they'd be able to hold up to 40% of lease land forever even if that land is not included in a drilling unit...). The WishGard lease is, simply, about the worse possible lease a landowner could sign to benefit themselves - O & G company friendly, many loopholes in it, and unable to be LEGALLY challenged once signed.
Adam - you KEEP saying "all leases have this..." about every problem I and/or anyone else has ever pointed out with WishGard leases...SHOW examples!!!!
Jan 2, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Edward email me at shantycreekfarms@gmail.com need some input on a meeting.
Jan 2, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Thanks Mark. I thought the same but thought you might have called. I did and found out there cut is 8%. Kinda steep!!!!!!!
Jan 2, 2012
Brad
Mark,
You are implying that the "force majeure" clause allows the driller to use virtually any excuse to extend the lease - it does not. The very definition/understanding of "force majeure" is that the operators inability to commence is based on an unforeseen event outside of that operator's control (war, natural disasters, moratorium, etc.). That is perfectly understandable and if I was the driller I would want the same. These clauses are not intended to apply to excuse failures to perform for reasons within the control of the operator. Excuses would not hold up in a court of law. The operator would need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that material or equipment could not be obtained because of "force majeure". Still waiting on the pugh clause excerpt??????
Jan 2, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Very true, Brad!
And as far as the WishGard lease goes, I DO have a copy of it! Unfortunately, I'm not able to post it on here, but CAN send it to anyone who wants it (along with the many problems I have found with it!) via email. Contact me at edgan75@hotmail.com if anyone is interested in SEEING why Adam is on this site (Now in Ashtabula's thread, previously in the Trumbull thread, among others on this site) unable to post as requested by myself ONE benefit to a landowner to even consider WishGard as a real option to leasing!
It doesn't matter whether you as a landowner have a lot of acreage or just a little (I have only 7 acres)...you have a valuable commodity! Why waste what you already have only to allow WishGard to profit from it? Doesn't it make more sense to wait things out a little bit, learn as much as you can about what options landowners have, and end up making far more money, better royalties, and a lease that has better terms that protect your land and the land that surrounds you? YOU ultimately have to live on your land...WishGard is interested only in making money and then moving on.
Kind of like locusts, if you ask me!
Jan 3, 2012
Adam Thomas
Brad,
The problem with the clause titled "Force Majeur" under the buckeye lease is that it includes more than "force Majeur" within the lease. It states, and I quote" Should Lessee be prevented from complying with any express, or implied covenant of this lease (except payment of money), from conducting drilling (including fracturing) or reworking operations thereon or from producingoil and gas therefrom by reason of inability to obtain or to use equipment or material, or by operation of Force Majeur, any sfederal or state law or any order, rule or regulation of government authority ("force majeur event") then while so prevented Lessee's obligation to comply with such covenant shall be suspended, and Lessee shall not be liable for such damages for failure to comply therewith, and this lease shall be extended while and so long as as Lessee is prevented by any such force majeur event from conductind drilling or reworking operations on or from producing oil or gas from Leased premise.
This is a HUGE LOOPHOLE that I have heard is being used in other areas. It is a loophole under the truest definition of the term.
My Intentions are purely to point out issues with some of these leases that the "average person" that is not fully versed in this industry can know what to look for. I will absolutely agree that NONE of these leases are "PERFECT". Some are alot better than others and following like sheep is not the best option for people. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and make whatever the best EDUTATED decision is for you. You and your families are the ones that is inevitably left with the results of your decision.
Jan 3, 2012
Adam Thomas
The force majeur clause is included in EVERY oil and gas lease I have read to date. It is necessary for the drillers to protect themselves. However, they are often times manipulated to include language that creats loopholes that include things that ae NOT beyond the driller's control as the example I have just given.
Jan 3, 2012
Finnbear
Are either of these the draft lease off the ALOV website? Are either of them a final landowner's copy that was signed and paid and filed with a county recorder? The final leases that have been signed and accepted by CHK are not on the ALOV website and I'd like to compare what was accepted with what they were asking for in their draft lease. I wonder what on their "wish list" they actually got accepted by CHK.
Jan 3, 2012
Adam Thomas
Edward.
I have never said that smaller landowners are not important. They absolutely are. My point is that I learned a long time ago to never let the guy sitting at the penny slot machine tell me how to bet my money. You are not looking at "life changing" money like many people are. Therefore your risks are alot lower than alot of other people.
Jan 3, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Adam...when will you realize that each time you post, you show yourself to be even MORE ignorant about leases???!!!
DIRECTLY from your quote "..., and this lease shall be extended while and so long as as Lessee is prevented by any such force majeur event from conductind drilling or reworking operations on or from producing oil or gas from Leased premise." This means the lease may only be extended by Force Majuer events. As you so thoughtfully bolded in your post, inability to obtain materials, etc. is considered SEPARATE from Force Majuer.
WHY is it that WishGard has one of the most inadequate leases available, yet you try SO hard to belittle other, far better leases from others?
Jan 3, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Telling me to "lease my couple of acres and find something else to do with my time" certainly sounds to ME as if you have no respect for small landowners!
The fact that I AM a small landowner, Adam, just means that whether I'm looking at life-changing money or not, it IS important to me nonetheless! The fact that I will still LIVE on my land means that I'll do whatever I can to make sure it remains not just profitable, but livable!
For me to see the obvious scam that flippers such as yourself try pulling and NOT do anything about it only hurts myself in the long run!
Again, I'm STILL waiting for you to post just ONE valid reason for ANYONE, large or small landowner, to consider signing with WishGard...
Jan 3, 2012
Brad
Adam,
"Inability to obtain or use......." per the result of force majeur. Do you really think that if given supplier cannot supply a given material, apart from reasons of force majeur, that it qualifies as "inability"? There is always another supplier or piece of equipment that can get the job done. Changing suppliers and equipment failures are a cost reality of doing business......they do not fall under "force majeur". I think there is a big difference between your definition of "inability" and a court of law's definition under a force majeur clause. I am done debating this issue with someone who does not interpret the clause in context and is flippant with words like "inability" . Again, the sensible people on this form can figure this out for themselves.
Jan 3, 2012
Ed Ganelli
The major use of Force Majeur in the O & G industry actually won't ever be the "Act of God" type of catastrophy...it'll be government regulations and laws (such as New York state's ban on fracking)...
The ability to find parts, equipment, etc. you're right about - there's no way it'll ever be considered Force Majeur...
Jan 3, 2012
Brad
Joe,
I agree, that's why I'm no longer wasting time on this issue. I was just trying to counter misrepresentations.
Jan 3, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Mark
My guess as to why it would be in the Force Majeur section could be if government regulations are enacted that don't allow use of such materials as, say, compressor stations, fracking fluids, etc., then that inability to obtain or use would fall under Force Majeur...
Jan 3, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Edward, can you fill me in on how find on odnr website, the logan well. I thought you were the one to explain it from one of the other discussions but cant find where it was. I am familiar with the well search site just need the order. Thanks
Jan 3, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Sure...the easiest way is to go to the well search section, in the search parameters for the App.issued date, enter first: =Equal then: 5/18/2011 then in the County enter first: =Equal then: Trumbull , then for permit or plug enter Permit. It should pop up as the only permit found for these parameters!
Jan 4, 2012
Bill Simpson
www.washingtonpaylawyer.com is holding three (3) upcoming seminars in the Eastern Ashtabula area. Jefferson on Jan10, Williamsfield on Jan14th and Geneva on Jan 16th. I have never attended any of their meetings nor know much about them (except 8% of the signing bonus) but plan on going just for the info. They are starting to form a group and I believe they are the only one in my area. If anyone out there knows of a group for the Jefferson/Dorset/Richmond area let me know.
I talked to Buckeye Mineral/Shale today and was told they are not sending out informational packages/sign up info to Eastern Ashtabula as they are not in this area yet. They expect to be in the upcoming months. Any info on formed groups for Ashtabula Cty would be greatly appreciated. Thx Also, I will pass on any Wishgard recommendations..
Jan 4, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Bill, on the top of the page says Buckeye is holding a meeting on the 12 of Jan at 7 in Pierpont at the firehall. Dont know true it is does anyone know for sure.
Jan 4, 2012
Bill Simpson
Jan 4, 2012
Dan
Bob Rea will be speaking at the Eastern Ashtabula Landowners Association meeting on January 12 , 7pm at the Pierpont firehall.
Hope to see everyone there.
Jan 5, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Is anyone welcome
Jan 5, 2012
Dan
Yes, should be some good information for all.
Jan 5, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Ok thanks I live in orwell and wanted to make sure. If you dont mind ,how did you find out about the meeting.
Jan 5, 2012
Dan
I have sat in on a few of the early meetings when the group was formed. They have fliers posted and being handed out , posted on the firehall billboard as well.
Jan 5, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Ok nothing down here in the sw side of the county was posted and was just curious, glad i found this sight otherwise would not have known about it. Still alot of people in the dark about all of this. Thanks
Jan 5, 2012
Adam Thomas
Bill,
Here is the pugh clause that is on the website of the group you talked of. It says these are examples of clause that they have negotiated. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with this Pugh clause?
I cut and pasted it directly from their site.
If the Leasehold covered by this Oil and Gas Lease covers more than sixty (60) net acres and more than sixty percent (60%) of the Leasehold covered by this Oil and Gas Lease is not included in the production unit established by Lessee, this Lease shall automatically terminate two (2) years (“Extended Term”) after the expiration of the primary term or any extension provided herein, insofar and only insofar as to all Leasehold outside a production unit established by Lessee for a well, provided if the Lessee, its successors or assigns shall be engaged in operations for the drilling, completing or testing of a new well or wells or the drilling, completing, testing, or deepening of an existing well or wells on the leased premises or on lands with which said Leasehold or a portion hereof have been included in a production unit, then this Oil and Gas Lease shall continue in full force and effect until such drilling, completing, testing or deepening operations have been completed.
Jan 6, 2012
Bill Simpson
This is a good example of why I advocate a good Oil/Gas attorney (not a divorce, DUI attorney etc) to go over the lease that is presented by anyone. As an ordinary person I am lost on this verbiage. If anyone has specifics with this the post good/bad from Adam please post it. I am going to one the Washingpalawyers meetings next week and will take it with me for clarification. Again I am new to the the leasing game and want any and all information I can receive to protect myself and my property.
Thx
Jan 6, 2012
Brad
Adam,
If I had 100 acres under a Wishgard lease and 50 acres fell under production (where royalties were received) , would the lease be terminated for the remaining 50 acres (that were not in "production zone") after the primary or extended term expired? Does Wishgard allow any reasons for the extension of the lease?
Jan 6, 2012
Dan
There is a article in todays Ashtabula County Star Beacon news paper , talks about Chesapeake Energy working with the county on emergency planning , and the well to be drilled in Richmond township.
Jan 6, 2012
john p halloran
I saw drilling equipment heading north on rt. 7 today.
Jan 6, 2012
Dan
I will check tomorrow at the site to see if any activity has taken place.
Jan 6, 2012
Adam Thomas
Jan 6, 2012
Finnbear
I thought it was from the ALOV lease?
Jan 7, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Nope...from the paylawyers lease...
Jan 7, 2012
Dan
No activity at the Richmond site that is located South of State Route 6 on Pymatuning lake road.
Jan 7, 2012
Brad
Mark,
I realize it is certainly possible to have a pugh clause specifying that any amount non-unitized land cannot be extended beyond the primary or secondary term. I was simply asking Adam if the Wishgard lease has this clause, since he is so quick to belittle the ALOV/Buckeye lease. Obviously he has not answered the question, so I'm assuming his answer would not be satisfactory to some on this form.
The ALOV lease is certainly not 100% in favor of the landowner, giving zero protection to the lessee - no lease is! It is admirable that you are aiming for a more comprehensive lease, but friend you may be left "high and dry" if you're too dogmatic and unrealistic. Landowners need to use discretion in separating the essentials from the secondaries. Anyone can pick apart any lease with an eyeglass. The fact is, when looking at the "big picture", there are presently no other leases that offer more protection to the landowner than the ALOV lease. Maybe that will change per the result of YOU and this form, Mark.......I hope it does! :)
Jan 7, 2012
Brad
Nobody is saying that we are "tied" to ALOV/Buckeye - individual land groups can certainly use their lease as the baseline. I am sure Buckeye is not opposed to the idea of making changes to their lease for each group that they represent. Whether or not the lessee will accept these changes is a different story. All I am saying is that the Buckeye lease is the best "baseline" lease going right now, and they are offering their services for much less than other companies like Wishgard, Tri-State Energy, and Palawyers. At this point I see no better option than individual land groups organizing within each township, gathering contiguous land if possible, and developing their own unique lease per the use of Buckeye Mineral and their "baseline" lease. This seems to be the most logical route to go at this point and I think Buckeye Mineral is thinking the same thing. I don't think they are going to organize the whole county with scattered individual parcels.......that isn't as appealing to the lessee. It is up to the landowners of Ashtabula as to whether they want to sit around and wait on a County wide group to develop, or if they want to be proactive and start their own group.
Jan 7, 2012
Adam Thomas
Brad, The answer to your question is that yes the other fifty acres would be relaeased and not held under production by the fifty acres of a 100 acre parcel being included in a producing unit. The lessee would have the option to extend the other fifty acres if they drilled in the 5 year primary term and they wanted to pay the extension price on the non-producing 50 acres or, although unlikely, technically the entire hundred acres if they chose to do so in hopes of drilling to deeper depths within that extension period.
Jan 7, 2012
Adam Thomas
The problem with this site is that many people on this site do not realize that a lease is a business deal. You can put any restriction in a lease including that they have to level the snow if an agent of lessee disturbs it. However, it is not practical and therefore a waste of time to write it as a lease has to be beneficial to both parties. If a driller is unwilling or unable to operate under those terms, it becomes a waste of time. A number of people seem to think that company "A" will agree to the same terms accross the board, in any circumstance. It is well publicized that there are landowners that gambled and won in certain places. These landowners and/or the companies that represented them, will tell everyone that listens. It is self promotion. However you must also keep in mind that the person that gambled and held out for terms they wanted or higher up-front money and held out too long and units were built around them or wells were drilled and it was found that area was not good, doesn't "brag" to anyone about how smart they were. They are VERY quiet about how smart they were when those decisions cost them alot of money.
The thing people on this site need to realize is that the information available in an area at that time will make or break negotiations and offers. Perhaps someday there will be offers of $10k an acre and 25% royalties in this area. However, they may never be. We do not know what this area holds yet and when they find out, it will either help us as landowners in this area or hurt us. The amount a particular individual wants to gamble is up to them but do not let some of these guys on here convince you that the only thing between you and HUGE money on leases is time because with time comes information and that information is what truly dictates the "value" of our properties and amount of leverage we have. I wish all landowners good luck with your decisions and hope that you remember that your decisions will effect you. not the people on this site. Do your homework and make the decision that is right for you and your family.
Jan 7, 2012