The REAL problem is that none of the companies flipping leases and trying everyone to "sign early or possibly get nothing" are promising exactly that - nothing! If a flipper DOES pay a landowner, it means the acreage was desired and the landowner is getting less from the flipper than he/she would have had they waited. If the land is proven to be useless, then the flipper will NEVER pay what was agreed to in the signed lease - they'll just not pay and the landowner will be released from the lease. As I've said all along, there is NO benefit to signing early with WishGard or any other flipper - if there was, their rep land agents would be able to post AT LEAST one of those benefits!
The advantage the people have by signing with Wishgard is very simple. We give them the ability to not have to gamble with(for alot of people) potentially life changing money. We have leased thousands of acres of ground because not everybody wants to gamble on the results of test wells and take a chance that they are not good. We are not proven in this area and I for one am not going to bet my $100,000 on the well being good. Wishgard is in the process of making a deal on the thousands of acreage we have leased before any well results will be known so that we can get everybody paid like we have always done. So to answer your question, Ed, the advantage is the fact that we are not sitting back and gambling on well results. It is absolutely the safest bet out there! I believe it was you that admitted that if the test wells turn out a cloud of dust then having signed for any amount would have turned out to been the right move. However, you are willing to gamble. You also do not have as much at stake as many of us do so please don't fault our personal decisions and I won't fault yours.
How does signing with WishGard help people not gamble? SHOW me ANYWHERE where WishGard guarantees paying ANYONE more than "one dollar and other valuable considerations"!!!!
I can assure everyone who has signed with WishGard will, after 120 business days, find out that if WishGard is unable to get 1600 an acre for the leases they have, then the landowner won't get anything either!
AND...I'm pretty sure everyone is tired of hearing out how much WishGard has paid out so far - why don't you post how much WishGard has profited at the expense of the landowners they have paid? Remember, SOME of Bernie Madoff's investors also got paid...we all know what happened to the majority who invested with him, though...
I have in fact said that if the wells in this area send up a cloud of dust then lease offers will drop to nothing - are YOU saying that WishGard is going to pay it's signees 1600 an acre for worthless land???
The only way the real facts will be known is to take a look back at these posts at years end or perhaps next year. Either some of us landowners will be eating steak and some will be eating peanut butter. Sad to say, but it happens. Upfront bonuses, royal payments on gross/net profits,lease verbiage on the Pugh clause, well heads and everything else that most of us landowners do not or cannot understand will all surface as good or bad things when we look back after signing our life away on a lease. I plan on attending as many meetings as I can and listen to all the information that is put out to the group. Next read and ask questions. Knowledge is power. Also, once output results are out from the experimental wells then this may be a good indicator of where signing bonuses may reach and what royalty payments may be. I for one do not want to make a decision on the unknown. As mentioned by other posts if you sit and wait you may win or you may lose. Kinda like rushing into a quickie marriage when someone you just met. Both parties promise everything, you do not know if they mean it and just like a bad well they may not put out later...
I agree fully with your post! I just by now have grown tired of Adam and his WishGard propaganda...would he like to post exactly what WishGard leased FOR in Southern Ohio and what they SOLD those leases for (and, also, what landowners who waited ended up getting per acre)? Will he show ANY transaction where land leases values didn't go above 1600 (or whatever WishGard paid at the time) and didn't get leased for more than that, yet landowners got paid the agreed upon amount by WishGard at a LOSS per acre for WishGard? Of course he won't! WishGard, as are many of their agents, are nothing more than opportunists - VERY similar, in fact, to Chesapeake's shell companies now in trouble for doing basically the same thing in Michigan that WishGard is doing here in Ohio...
That brings up another point - I wonder how many of those who jumped on the WishGard "get rich fast at the expense of others" scheme have thought about the long-term ramifications of what their association with WishGard will mean to their reputations when they return to the employment they were involved in prior to WishGard's entry into the area these agents live in. My guess is that many of these people spent years building the trust and respect of those in their community - surely they can't think that KNOWINGLY supporting and pushing what, in my opinion, is nothing more than a shell company, will leave them with ANY of the trust or respect that they previously counted on for their careers...
Edward, I do not understand why do not realize that the price offered in NE ohio is purely speculation. Yes Wishgard is currently in the process of getting a deal made for the landowners we represent so that they can get paid. As I said, like they always seem to do. Speculation by nature means that there is risk by both parties. I also like how you said you are tired of hearing about the money that Wishgard has paid out. I am sure you are as I am sure all our competitors are as well. However, arguing with success makes no sense. The other part that I would like to point out to you is that prior to myself inviting Wishgard into the area, there was next to no knowledge by the general public on the subject. It is Wishgard that holds town hall meetings to educate people. If they were trying to screw people over, knowledge would be the last thing they would want for the public. They could have made way more money by simply coming up here and quietly leasing property for $25-$50 an acre rather than spending money on venues to educate and spread the word as to what is going on. I am sorry if you cannot see how positive their presence in the area has been for the landowners that either do not want to gamble and wait or because of themselves or someone they know sitting in on one of wishgards meetings, now realize what they have and will not be taken advantage of as a result of the educational meetings that we put on.
It's all a crap shoot at this time for Ashtabula county. Can't really fault someone for signing early for maybe less. I don't walk in my neighbors shoes. Might be they are 80 years old and don't want to wait for 2-3 years for things to shake out, 1600 per acre probably enough at their age to be happy. I know some of the Amish are signing , probably need less money than me to be happy. Me , 1600 is not enough at this time, but I will not need 10,000 either.
In the end weather you sign with a Flipper or a Landowner group no one will get paid unless there is a buyer.
Actually, Adam, as you have already pointed out, I DO realize that the price is purely speculative in any unproven area! What I've been saying, and what you are unable to deny, is that NO LANDOWNER guarantees payment by signing with WishGard! If so, then WishGard would be more than happy to apply terms in their lease that provide penalty payments if WishGard doesn't pay on a clear title lease! How can you even begin to say that "risk in this case is shared by both parties"? Let WishGard pay immediately upon proof of clear title and THEN risk is at shared! Otherwise, what risk at all does WishGard bear...a few dollars for signs and venue rentals?
I've spoken to MANY people, both in real life and here on this site, who HAVE attended WishGard meetings...they, without exception, describe how WishGard reps continue to use scare tactics and high-pressure ploys to get landowners "frightened" into signing "before it's too late!". That's not educating...that's marketing...
I understand WishGard has one of their "Informative Meetings" coming up soon in the township I live in. I'd be MORE than happy, if you're willing, to debate you there about the benefits/downfalls of leasing with WishGard or any other flipper company. Facts only...and you'd be able to be sure I'd lead off directly with what Chesapeake and it's shell companies did in Michigan, then let YOU try to explain how what WishGard is doing here is any different...
What you say would make sense, EXCEPT that there is NO guarantee that signing with WishGard will result in payment! As you say, those signing with WishGard have been predominantly older landowners and Amish...to see what WishGard survives on, one has only to find what these two demographics have in common. Is it intelligence? Nope. Need for money? Nope again. Lack of Internet and any real capacity to educate THEMSELVES rather than being "educated" by Wishgard reps? YES! Even the Amish, who had originally been so willing to sign with WishGard, are now getting the word out among their community about WishGard as more and more landowners like myself have been distributing information to them personally. WishGard CANNOT profit at the expense of a public that is well/fairly informed...
Sounds like Edward is sure enough about the bogus intentions of Wishgard that he is willing to debate you publicly. This sounds like a good way to get to the bottom of things. Will you accept this offer?
For what it's worth, I decided against signing with Wishguard long ago. Signing with them wouldn't have reduced my risk at all... rather, it simply would have eliminated my upside potential. If Wishguard would have successfully flipped my lease, it would probably only mean that the $1,600 per acre I would receive was way too low. If Wishguard is unsuccessful, I would have nothing to show for it except the headache of trying to get their lease voided.
I'm blessed with friends who are smarter than I am who have advised me to be patient. I'm convinced that a careful and disciplined landowners pool is the best way to go.
Edward, I debate you publically all the time. Right here in front of everybody. The result is never different. You have your opinion as a person that has no experience nor received any money from any company nor signed a lease with any company for you to argue over who is right. I have held a check in my hand and know a number of people that have both dealt with Wishgard as well as been paid as a result. The list of clients include a former state senator as well as many lawyers, business people, huge coal companies, towns, townships, as well as villages. It is rediculous for you to continue to claim that the only people that ever signed with wishgard are uneducated. I think it is clear who the uneducated person truly is. When you actually receive payment and get included in a unit and receive your royalty checks, please look me up and I will gladly admit you were right. However, until you have ANY luck negotiating a phenomenally better deal than is being offered on the few acres you have to leverage the major O\G companies with, please do not waste any more of the people's time on this site with your incredible desire to give everybody your two cents. They have already heard it time and time and time again. You have very few facts and absolutely no experience on the topic, not to mention very little to lose out on either way compared to ALOT of other people in this area. Your credibility was lost when you began to advocate for fighting these multi-billion dollar corporations in court. Most of us are far smarter than that, but you are free to sign or not sign any deal you feel comfortable with, the same as everyone else is.
You said, "Wishgard is currently in the process of getting a deal made for the landowners we represent so that they can get paid." It sounds like those people entered into a half___ deal and everything thing is up in the air. Are you saying that those people in Ashtabula County, who went into contract with Wishgard, are not guaranteed their 1600/acre at this point? The flipper company that I dealt with in the past, to my regret, paid me directly and guaranteed payment within 90 days. I just don't understand your rhetoric.....you sound like a politician.
Mark, "Very well said", You forgot to mention the royalties. ALOV 20% NO DEDUCTIONS AND Wishgard 17 % With deductions,over a 30 year period that is alot !!!
Ah, everyone...Adam can't help but to berate me and others on this site - it's what he does EVERY time he's proven wrong publicly! Your list of former WishGard customers, Adam - "...and know a number of people that have both dealt with Wishgard as well as been paid as a result. The list of clients include a former state senator as well as many lawyers, business people, huge coal companies, towns, townships, as well as villages." - sounds more like a list of Bernie Madoff's cellmates than it does average landowners such as we're in!
He gets $25 per acre for each acre he signs up for WishGard...once he gets that, that will be the last anyone hears from him, just like those he dealt with while still in the timber business. Unlike Adam, I've never put forth any premise of O & G expertise, yet the truth is all here in this thread and in the Trumbull County thread - he has YET to show anything I've posted as non-factual. Honestly now...did ANYONE think he WOULD have agreed to debate me? He and WishGard wouldn't dare take such a chance - especially if Adam is the idiot they have debating the merits of dealing with a company that doesn't care at all about the landowner!
Your last post, Adam, is like everything you post - one more post dodging the questions being asked of you! In it, once again you whine about me being after you in these forums ever since I found out WishGard requires landowners to assign away their right to have lease conflicts decided in a court of law - on a LEGAL basis! Anyone reading can easily see that my opposition to WishGard, and YOU specifically, began long before that!
I'm certain that all your experience in timber, screwing landowners into selling the timber on their property to you to remarket to a timber company, has provided you with a WEALTH of knowledge about the O & G industry! Oh, wait, no...that experience provided you with the experience to screw the owner of a resource out of the maximum profits that landowner could realize by bypassing bottom-feeders such as Adam, WishGard, and anyone working on behalf of WishGard.
Now to go elsewhere to remind recipients of medications that cause great harm to people...those who live in areas destroyed by large conglomerate industries...those who have gone through the long and painful process of joint replacement only to have to go through it again when they find out their replacement is defective, etc. - just how unlucky all of THEM are that THEY couldn't seek LEGAL restitution after being wronged...( Yes, Adam...THAT was sarcasm!)
Got a letter from Wishgard over the weekend looking to sign us up (we've got 88 acres just over the line into Lake County) and offering their (apparently) standard $1,600/acre...15% deal. They claim interest in further Lake County property...time for a new county group?
i'm new to the site and new to the whole o&g leases i live in northern ashtabula. i have been aproached by wishgard,nela and f&m and i am not a land barron to say the least, but can someone give me there experience with them? also as far as the basics of the leases varying from pugh clauses, net and gross royalities etc. is the only thing that people are waiting for is more upfront money and more royalities from 15% to 20%?
is the only company wishgard giving upfront money? with the others waiting anywhere from 18 months to 3 years?
* please do not comment if you are a salesman from one of these companys. i am looking for real peoples experience and opionions. sorry
tom that really does not answer my question. can you answer the questions or not? not trying to be rude but i have been through alot of the posts and would like to know these specific questions . with out getting into the politics of the situation but i think all these companys are get rich quik companys taking advantage of people in a non educated and ecomically domn situation
tom thanks great info and insight i appreciate it . might you know how long the people waited for the $3-5000 that you speak of? also what is your take on ashtabula being as hot as some of those other southern counties. another major concern for me , with them not drilling test wells and not being a geologist. it does seem like a 50/50 chance we are taking , what are your thoughts?
tom , have you signed with anyone yet? if so who and why? hope that is not too personal of a question, and how long in your opinion should someone wait to sign with a group? thanks for your insight
John,
Do you really believe that he EVER did? Lol. Why do you think that all negotiations are done behind closed doors? Could you donate your time for an entire year, 12+ hours a day 5,6, days a week for nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling inside? Lol. You better read that lease, particularly the pugh clause in as it is a joke!!!!! I don't care who or when you sign with, but, if you can't read the Pugh clause in that lease and undrstand why it is so horrible, I suggest you do more research before you sign with anyone!
The Pugh Clause in ALOV's lease is NOWHERE the problem Adam (WishGard, of course!) wants people to think! Explain WishGard's wonderful Pugh Clause and all the other problems with WishGard's lease before trying to tear apart other leases, Adam!
Brynmore...as you can see throughout this site, WishGard is by far anyone's WORST choice to sign with - NO guarantee of anything! Just negotiating with landowner assets, at best to make the landowner a small profit and the company a HUGE one!
Leasing in your area is still in its infancy - no need to hurry to sign...better to use your time now to learn all you can about the industry! Signing now will result in one of two things - if area proves good for drilling, then you'll have way undersold the value of your acreage, or if area is not promising at this time then you'll have committed to WishGard for nearly 6 months only to get nothing at the end of the 6 months...
Ed, if you are telling me that there is not a problem with the Pugh clause in that lease, you do not know even a fraction of what you claim to. IT IS A JOKE!!! I didnt say anything about Wishgard whatsoever. I would much rather have their pugh clause than the one in the buckeye lease. My point is that the buckeye lease is nowhere near as good as many people want you to believe it is. Period!! You even have to be able to admit that.
I never said the Pugh clause in the ALOV/Buckeye lease was faultless...I said it was NOWHERE near as bad as you want it to sound! WishGard's is no better (actually worse), and the difference between ALOV/Buckeye is that when a lease is presented to landowners in the group, THEY DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT IT! They can decline, then keep their mineral rights to negotiate further. With WishGard, landowners signing are TIED to the WishGard lease - no option whatsoever to opt out, no availability of ever using non-compliance of implied covenant to be released from the lease, and no legal way to ever challenge disputes caused by the lease in court! The ALOV/Buckeye lease leaves intact ALL these options (including an option to go to arbitration over disputes, THEN the ability to also go to court if the landowner feels arbitor didn't decide the conflict on a LEGAL basis!). You can say all you want that a court battle against giant O & G companies is unaffordable, but the landowners in Michigan that were duped by Chesapeake's shell companies who are now part of a huge class-action lawsuit against Chesapeake would surely disagree. If they had to go to arbitration, they most likely would have lost since arbitors reach their decisions based mostly on what is common practice within the business, not what is legal according to law. Most experts in the field of O & G law have already said that was Chesapeake did was illegal.
The ALOV lease as a whole is regarded as one of the most landowner friendly leases out there - no O & G company will ever sign a lease giving landowners everything they'd like. NOWHERE (other than posts by WishGard employees) have I ever seen the WishGard lease considered as even acceptable!
Why not post an example of what YOU think is the best lease available?
Adam is trying to say that the Pugh Clause in the ALOV/Buckeye lease allows for drilling a shallow well, then before the end of the primary (plus extension) term is up, simply PLANNING to drill a deeper lease, thereby holding the lease. He doesn't understand that this WOULD NOT meet the implied covenants of both production and use, and since landowners with an ALOV lease don't sign away their rights to implied covenant, they can challenge to have the lease terminated...
LEASE DEVELOPMENT.There is no implied covenant to drill, prevent drainage, further develop or market production within the primary term or any extension of term of this Lease. There shall be no Leasehold forfeiture, termination, expiration or cancellation for failure to comply with said implied covenants.
This what makes the WishGard lease SO much worse than most other leases! Those signing with WishGard (they never say anything to prospective signees about this clause) are further disallowed from what has become a landowners best friend when dealing with leases that are being unused/abused by drillers. Sadly, it IS a right landowners can sign away...but nowhere in the ALOV lease does it include a clause so detrimental to the landowner in the future management of his acreage...
I've brought this up many times in these forums, but with new landowners joining GMS all the time, I feel it's important to keep posting these so new members don't have to read through tons of other threads to get important information...
Tom
That's an excellent idea, but hard to expect from an O & G company! Imagine the logistical nightmares of supply pipelines, surface rights, etc. for an O & G company tied to only deep rights. Would work fine if the acreage is part of a horizontal drilling unit, though...
Thanks! I looked through the documents, however, and the ones posted are just agreements between Beck and XTO. Were there stipulations/language in the actual lease that landowners signed that separated shallow rights from deep rights, and made clear land surface usage, pipeline ROW, etc.?
Thanks for hunting these up - I'd have taken forever looking for them myself! :-) The problem with them, though, is that they all deal with the Beck/XTO agreement - O & G companies often split the layers amongst themselves. If the landowners DID sign a standard lease with no addendums, the they most likely are locked into terms that include surface down to whatever layer they leased to - often stated in leases as "Middle-of-the-earth" depth. If this is the case, the landowner can't specify anything about which layer, surface usage (other than that included in their lease), ROW, etc..
I'd have to see the actual lease to know if the landowners retained the shallow rights, and any surface usage protections other than what is supplied by a standard lease. The standard Beck language you posted below looks like it allows the company to consolidate any parts of strata, not the landowners themselves... :-/
Exactly, Tom...it gives BECK the the right to split and pool their leases, but not the landowners. This is common practice between O & G companies, but rarely do landowners have an opportunity to be able to specify in a lease what depths they are leasing without extensive language also in the lease about surface use, ROW, etc...
Ed, why is the wording even there in the Pugh clause?
...to open a loophole for the company they peddle their leases to. It starts out great but then they keep writing! Why? They had it right to start with. No need to write anything else if they were not opening a loophole!!! I am sure CHK requires it! They already have more acreage than they can drill horizontally in the next 10 years! Or are you foolish enough to believe that they aren't just a marketing took of CHK?
Find ANY lease that isn't full of potential loopholes!!! As I asked before - why don't YOU post a perfect lease on here? The simple truth is that the Pugh Clause you claim is SO bad really isn't - it has many escape clauses for the landowner...
As far as ALOV being a tool for Chesapeake, maybe they are! Does it really matter, though, as long as the landowners themselves eventually get to decide on whether or not they were represented relatively fairly? If nothing else, ALOV saves its members tons of work and trouble trying to negotiate for themselves, and gets relatively high lease amounts for their members! I myself have problems with how ALOV has operated (mostly the lack of info to members during negotiations), but I'd feel a LOT better waiting as an ALOV member than I would signing early (without pay upfront) with anyone else...
I think you misunderstand me...a landowner CAN separate strata in a lease, but the problem now is trying to get an O & G company to agree to do so! I've not heard of many landowners (except those few who have acreage that a company HAS to have) that have been able to do this... :-)
Tom, I never said all landowner groups are bad. I, for one, see that alot of them are led by people that do not have enough information on the subject to be able to lead anyone. In many cases, it is the blind leading the blind. I am sure some groups are good. But alot of them are being led by people that simply have no knowledge other than what they hear from people rather than doing the research and actually helping the people they are trying to help.
I personally feel there is NOT a person out there that will devote a year of their life to people and supposedly make everyone else these "great" deals and make the groups millions while they get nothing. Come on... lol That is why I am not in favor of the trumbull county group. They deal with one company and do all negotiations behind closed doors. The reason they are successful is because the average person takes the information provided by their leader as gospel. They don't do the research on their own. I have advocated education on this site time and time again. How many times have I said, do what is right for you. I do not promote a company on here. I simply give my opinion. The same as everyone else. Numerous people continue to berate any person that does not follow their own beliefs. I think it completely undermines the purpose of the site. Whether you agree or disagree is your right. Unfortunately, alot of people on here seem to be unable to seperate their opinions from facts and would rather argue than present information with an open mind and actually hold an intelligent discussion. I think most people that come to this site are not interested in the continuous opinion based arguements. I am sure you will bash me or attempt to spin everything thaty I actually said as you always do but I guess that is your right to. I read that you got into a group and I hope it works for you. However, I am sure you can at least admit that there is no guarentee to any of this shale thing unless you are in a proven area like you are. Congratulations to you for being in one of those areas. I am not and there is no guarentee that I ever will be. As a result, I will lease my property and put the money in the bank as I always have because that is what works best for me. I am not a big gambler and your opinion of what I should or should not do means nothing to me.
Yes, I read the whole thread, actually - a LOT of reading! :-D I just know it's easy for someone to SAY something, but only facts will show whether what he says is true or not. I saw where Nate was asked to show his leases that reserved/separated strata within the lease, but he never posted them. I'm just thinking the logistics of a split-strata lease for an O & G company would almost always make them unwilling to sign one: Who controls the surface area, the shallow or the deep leaseholder? Which controls ROWs? In conflicts between the two, who would prevail? I'm sure there are many other potential conflicts in this scenario...
Since I first started researching oil and gas info about a year ago, I have read a LOT of leases from this site and through Google searches. I THINK that so far, I have read one signed within the last year where the landowner split his strata, and have read about a few others that O & G companies HAD to have where they were willing to agree to it. Unless a landowner is fortunate enough to own acreage in one of these absolutely necessary areas, I doubt he'd have much success getting an O & G company to agree to splitting strata. It IS always worth trying for, though!
"Reply by Adam Thomas on October 16, 2011 at 9:47am
Mr. Kerns,
This is Adam Thomas of who you spoke. I am very pleased to admit that I do represent Wishgard. I am a former client of theirs and when the development of the technology to commercially produce the Utica shale, I contacted them to come up here. I own 33 acres of my own in Ashtabula county and I wanted to get my own property involved with wishgard. I found very quickly that there was NO knowledge at all in the general public on the subject. I invited Wishgard to come up and educate people on how the industry works and how the leasing industry works. Before we started spreading the word, there was no ligitamate company offering more than $50 an acre in Ashtabula, Geauga, or northern Trumbull county. Instead of quietly screwing people over and leasing up acreage for $25-$50 an acre and make millions in a few weeks time, as we could have. We are offering as much as the market will handle with the information that is available in this area. By spreading the word and educating people, we are eliminating people from being taken advantage of..."
I found this in less than a minute...no need really for me to look for more exmples on this site of you advocating landowners to sign with WishGard to get the "guaranteed money", as you many times have put it...
That's right Ed, I shared my personal experience once my name was brought onto this site. I hid nothing. That posting is dated in October. Other than when attacked repeatedly and more bogus information is poured on this site as fact when it is purely opinion, I do defend myself. I do not post on here as a promotion of any company.
Tom, bob rea signed a lease on his acrage in columbiana county a long time ago. What did he receive for his involvement with Carroll, mahonong, Trumbull? Not a better lease for himself. It must be the warm fuzzy feeling! Lol
Thanks Bill! This is where I think Tom and I didn't see quite eye-to-eye...I was speaking of NEW leases being signed, not leases being redone, reworked, renegotiated, etc. where rig activity is already going on on a landowner's acreage. Landowners who own wells on their property already have a vested interest in the shallow rights that they wouldn't be expected to sign away, and as such has much more bargaining power than landowners with vacant land do... :-)
Should I also go back and copy/paste all your posts where you said you and others were better off signing with WishGard and getting something even if the area becomes useless? Who do you think you ARE actually - an advocate for the landowner...the people that you are so busy trying to sign up to WishGard leases???
For you to actually post ANYWHERE on this site that you are not an advocate for WishGard is nothing more than a lie. Better for you to just say that yes, you are a landman for WishGard, and that therefore you have a vested interest in their success getting landowners to sign leases with WishGard. It would be no more honorable, but at least would be more truthful...
No Tom...but again, that was an agreement between O & G companies, not between a company and the landowner directly. It is VERY difficult for a landowner to negotiate separating strata in a new lease unless there is some factor (oil company absolutely needing that acreage, landowner already using the shallow layer, etc.) that would make it necessary to separate them. As a matter of fact, I THINK that in the leases I have read that gave landowners separated strata, there was always a clause that gave the deep-rights holder first option at leasing even the shallow rights...
I don't, Bill...but unless the landowner has enough acreage to make up a big portion of a drilling unit, smaller landowners run the risk of being bypassed or forced pooled if they try for too much in a lease. This is exactly the reason I always advise landowners to either get into a landowners group or to at very least reach agreements with neighboring landowners - larger number of acres = more bargaining power! :-)
Tom, follow closely. I did not work for Wishgard or anyone else in Belmont county or any other southern county. I dealt with Wishgard representing property that the company I work for owned. Now that has to be ten times that I have explained it to you. Hopefully one more will help you get it strait.
By the way, you avoided the question that I asked with your typical method. Why would bob Rae lease in other counties and make everyone else millions and get nothing. At the same time hold ALL negotiations behind closed doors? Please explain!!!!
You've said several times that WishGard is currently negotiating the sales of their leases, Adam - why don't THEY disclose this info to landowners leased with them?
And again, Bob Rae MAY have made money with ALOV - no way really to prove one way or another whether or not he did - but no matter what, he DID make group members a better deal than they would have gotten by signing with a flipper company - more money per acre and a better lease...
Ed, I am an advocate for the landowner because many people want everybody to believe that time is ALL they need before they will sign leases at 6,000 and 50% royalties. This is not true! I can cut and paste from your own posting that if the test wells come back dry, then signing for anything would have been the smart move. Too many people do not realize that the area would have to be proven before offers will go up. If and when that happens, the game changes all together. The offers go up or the offers go away. Period! Waiting is not always the best thing to do. Look at Fayette and Somerset counties in Pa. Those people turned down $3000 and got nothing.
Ed Ganelli
The REAL problem is that none of the companies flipping leases and trying everyone to "sign early or possibly get nothing" are promising exactly that - nothing! If a flipper DOES pay a landowner, it means the acreage was desired and the landowner is getting less from the flipper than he/she would have had they waited. If the land is proven to be useless, then the flipper will NEVER pay what was agreed to in the signed lease - they'll just not pay and the landowner will be released from the lease. As I've said all along, there is NO benefit to signing early with WishGard or any other flipper - if there was, their rep land agents would be able to post AT LEAST one of those benefits!
Jan 7, 2012
Adam Thomas
Jan 8, 2012
Ed Ganelli
How does signing with WishGard help people not gamble? SHOW me ANYWHERE where WishGard guarantees paying ANYONE more than "one dollar and other valuable considerations"!!!!
I can assure everyone who has signed with WishGard will, after 120 business days, find out that if WishGard is unable to get 1600 an acre for the leases they have, then the landowner won't get anything either!
AND...I'm pretty sure everyone is tired of hearing out how much WishGard has paid out so far - why don't you post how much WishGard has profited at the expense of the landowners they have paid? Remember, SOME of Bernie Madoff's investors also got paid...we all know what happened to the majority who invested with him, though...
I have in fact said that if the wells in this area send up a cloud of dust then lease offers will drop to nothing - are YOU saying that WishGard is going to pay it's signees 1600 an acre for worthless land???
Jan 8, 2012
Bill Simpson
Jan 8, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Bill
I agree fully with your post! I just by now have grown tired of Adam and his WishGard propaganda...would he like to post exactly what WishGard leased FOR in Southern Ohio and what they SOLD those leases for (and, also, what landowners who waited ended up getting per acre)? Will he show ANY transaction where land leases values didn't go above 1600 (or whatever WishGard paid at the time) and didn't get leased for more than that, yet landowners got paid the agreed upon amount by WishGard at a LOSS per acre for WishGard? Of course he won't! WishGard, as are many of their agents, are nothing more than opportunists - VERY similar, in fact, to Chesapeake's shell companies now in trouble for doing basically the same thing in Michigan that WishGard is doing here in Ohio...
That brings up another point - I wonder how many of those who jumped on the WishGard "get rich fast at the expense of others" scheme have thought about the long-term ramifications of what their association with WishGard will mean to their reputations when they return to the employment they were involved in prior to WishGard's entry into the area these agents live in. My guess is that many of these people spent years building the trust and respect of those in their community - surely they can't think that KNOWINGLY supporting and pushing what, in my opinion, is nothing more than a shell company, will leave them with ANY of the trust or respect that they previously counted on for their careers...
Jan 8, 2012
Adam Thomas
Jan 8, 2012
Dan
It's all a crap shoot at this time for Ashtabula county. Can't really fault someone for signing early for maybe less. I don't walk in my neighbors shoes. Might be they are 80 years old and don't want to wait for 2-3 years for things to shake out, 1600 per acre probably enough at their age to be happy. I know some of the Amish are signing , probably need less money than me to be happy. Me , 1600 is not enough at this time, but I will not need 10,000 either.
In the end weather you sign with a Flipper or a Landowner group no one will get paid unless there is a buyer.
Jan 8, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Actually, Adam, as you have already pointed out, I DO realize that the price is purely speculative in any unproven area! What I've been saying, and what you are unable to deny, is that NO LANDOWNER guarantees payment by signing with WishGard! If so, then WishGard would be more than happy to apply terms in their lease that provide penalty payments if WishGard doesn't pay on a clear title lease! How can you even begin to say that "risk in this case is shared by both parties"? Let WishGard pay immediately upon proof of clear title and THEN risk is at shared! Otherwise, what risk at all does WishGard bear...a few dollars for signs and venue rentals?
I've spoken to MANY people, both in real life and here on this site, who HAVE attended WishGard meetings...they, without exception, describe how WishGard reps continue to use scare tactics and high-pressure ploys to get landowners "frightened" into signing "before it's too late!". That's not educating...that's marketing...
I understand WishGard has one of their "Informative Meetings" coming up soon in the township I live in. I'd be MORE than happy, if you're willing, to debate you there about the benefits/downfalls of leasing with WishGard or any other flipper company. Facts only...and you'd be able to be sure I'd lead off directly with what Chesapeake and it's shell companies did in Michigan, then let YOU try to explain how what WishGard is doing here is any different...
Jan 8, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Dan
What you say would make sense, EXCEPT that there is NO guarantee that signing with WishGard will result in payment! As you say, those signing with WishGard have been predominantly older landowners and Amish...to see what WishGard survives on, one has only to find what these two demographics have in common. Is it intelligence? Nope. Need for money? Nope again. Lack of Internet and any real capacity to educate THEMSELVES rather than being "educated" by Wishgard reps? YES! Even the Amish, who had originally been so willing to sign with WishGard, are now getting the word out among their community about WishGard as more and more landowners like myself have been distributing information to them personally. WishGard CANNOT profit at the expense of a public that is well/fairly informed...
Jan 8, 2012
Brad
Adam,
Sounds like Edward is sure enough about the bogus intentions of Wishgard that he is willing to debate you publicly. This sounds like a good way to get to the bottom of things. Will you accept this offer?
Jan 8, 2012
Depolarized Farmer
For what it's worth, I decided against signing with Wishguard long ago. Signing with them wouldn't have reduced my risk at all... rather, it simply would have eliminated my upside potential. If Wishguard would have successfully flipped my lease, it would probably only mean that the $1,600 per acre I would receive was way too low. If Wishguard is unsuccessful, I would have nothing to show for it except the headache of trying to get their lease voided.
I'm blessed with friends who are smarter than I am who have advised me to be patient. I'm convinced that a careful and disciplined landowners pool is the best way to go.
Jan 8, 2012
Adam Thomas
Jan 8, 2012
Brad
Adam,
You said, "Wishgard is currently in the process of getting a deal made for the landowners we represent so that they can get paid." It sounds like those people entered into a half___ deal and everything thing is up in the air. Are you saying that those people in Ashtabula County, who went into contract with Wishgard, are not guaranteed their 1600/acre at this point? The flipper company that I dealt with in the past, to my regret, paid me directly and guaranteed payment within 90 days. I just don't understand your rhetoric.....you sound like a politician.
Jan 8, 2012
Craig Stull
Mark, "Very well said", You forgot to mention the royalties. ALOV 20% NO DEDUCTIONS AND Wishgard 17 % With deductions,over a 30 year period that is alot !!!
Jan 8, 2012
shantycreekfarms
Last I new gentleman, wishgard was only 15% royalty so add 2% more to the bottom line.
Jan 8, 2012
john p halloran
Jan 8, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Ah, everyone...Adam can't help but to berate me and others on this site - it's what he does EVERY time he's proven wrong publicly! Your list of former WishGard customers, Adam - "...and know a number of people that have both dealt with Wishgard as well as been paid as a result. The list of clients include a former state senator as well as many lawyers, business people, huge coal companies, towns, townships, as well as villages." - sounds more like a list of Bernie Madoff's cellmates than it does average landowners such as we're in!
He gets $25 per acre for each acre he signs up for WishGard...once he gets that, that will be the last anyone hears from him, just like those he dealt with while still in the timber business. Unlike Adam, I've never put forth any premise of O & G expertise, yet the truth is all here in this thread and in the Trumbull County thread - he has YET to show anything I've posted as non-factual. Honestly now...did ANYONE think he WOULD have agreed to debate me? He and WishGard wouldn't dare take such a chance - especially if Adam is the idiot they have debating the merits of dealing with a company that doesn't care at all about the landowner!
Your last post, Adam, is like everything you post - one more post dodging the questions being asked of you! In it, once again you whine about me being after you in these forums ever since I found out WishGard requires landowners to assign away their right to have lease conflicts decided in a court of law - on a LEGAL basis! Anyone reading can easily see that my opposition to WishGard, and YOU specifically, began long before that!
I'm certain that all your experience in timber, screwing landowners into selling the timber on their property to you to remarket to a timber company, has provided you with a WEALTH of knowledge about the O & G industry! Oh, wait, no...that experience provided you with the experience to screw the owner of a resource out of the maximum profits that landowner could realize by bypassing bottom-feeders such as Adam, WishGard, and anyone working on behalf of WishGard.
Now to go elsewhere to remind recipients of medications that cause great harm to people...those who live in areas destroyed by large conglomerate industries...those who have gone through the long and painful process of joint replacement only to have to go through it again when they find out their replacement is defective, etc. - just how unlucky all of THEM are that THEY couldn't seek LEGAL restitution after being wronged...( Yes, Adam...THAT was sarcasm!)
Jan 8, 2012
Clay Nielsen
Got a letter from Wishgard over the weekend looking to sign us up (we've got 88 acres just over the line into Lake County) and offering their (apparently) standard $1,600/acre...15% deal. They claim interest in further Lake County property...time for a new county group?
Jan 9, 2012
Finnbear
Clay,
I just applied for a Lake county group here on gomarcellusshale.com
I'll post another notice when the site publisher approves it.
Jan 10, 2012
john p halloran
Jan 13, 2012
brynmore
hi everyone
i'm new to the site and new to the whole o&g leases i live in northern ashtabula. i have been aproached by wishgard,nela and f&m and i am not a land barron to say the least, but can someone give me there experience with them? also as far as the basics of the leases varying from pugh clauses, net and gross royalities etc. is the only thing that people are waiting for is more upfront money and more royalities from 15% to 20%?
is the only company wishgard giving upfront money? with the others waiting anywhere from 18 months to 3 years?
* please do not comment if you are a salesman from one of these companys. i am looking for real peoples experience and opionions. sorry
Jan 15, 2012
brynmore
tom that really does not answer my question. can you answer the questions or not? not trying to be rude but i have been through alot of the posts and would like to know these specific questions . with out getting into the politics of the situation but i think all these companys are get rich quik companys taking advantage of people in a non educated and ecomically domn situation
Jan 15, 2012
brynmore
tom thanks great info and insight i appreciate it . might you know how long the people waited for the $3-5000 that you speak of? also what is your take on ashtabula being as hot as some of those other southern counties. another major concern for me , with them not drilling test wells and not being a geologist. it does seem like a 50/50 chance we are taking , what are your thoughts?
Jan 15, 2012
brynmore
Jan 15, 2012
Adam Thomas
Do you really believe that he EVER did? Lol. Why do you think that all negotiations are done behind closed doors? Could you donate your time for an entire year, 12+ hours a day 5,6, days a week for nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling inside? Lol. You better read that lease, particularly the pugh clause in as it is a joke!!!!! I don't care who or when you sign with, but, if you can't read the Pugh clause in that lease and undrstand why it is so horrible, I suggest you do more research before you sign with anyone!
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
The Pugh Clause in ALOV's lease is NOWHERE the problem Adam (WishGard, of course!) wants people to think! Explain WishGard's wonderful Pugh Clause and all the other problems with WishGard's lease before trying to tear apart other leases, Adam!
Brynmore...as you can see throughout this site, WishGard is by far anyone's WORST choice to sign with - NO guarantee of anything! Just negotiating with landowner assets, at best to make the landowner a small profit and the company a HUGE one!
Leasing in your area is still in its infancy - no need to hurry to sign...better to use your time now to learn all you can about the industry! Signing now will result in one of two things - if area proves good for drilling, then you'll have way undersold the value of your acreage, or if area is not promising at this time then you'll have committed to WishGard for nearly 6 months only to get nothing at the end of the 6 months...
Jan 16, 2012
Adam Thomas
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
I never said the Pugh clause in the ALOV/Buckeye lease was faultless...I said it was NOWHERE near as bad as you want it to sound! WishGard's is no better (actually worse), and the difference between ALOV/Buckeye is that when a lease is presented to landowners in the group, THEY DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT IT! They can decline, then keep their mineral rights to negotiate further. With WishGard, landowners signing are TIED to the WishGard lease - no option whatsoever to opt out, no availability of ever using non-compliance of implied covenant to be released from the lease, and no legal way to ever challenge disputes caused by the lease in court! The ALOV/Buckeye lease leaves intact ALL these options (including an option to go to arbitration over disputes, THEN the ability to also go to court if the landowner feels arbitor didn't decide the conflict on a LEGAL basis!). You can say all you want that a court battle against giant O & G companies is unaffordable, but the landowners in Michigan that were duped by Chesapeake's shell companies who are now part of a huge class-action lawsuit against Chesapeake would surely disagree. If they had to go to arbitration, they most likely would have lost since arbitors reach their decisions based mostly on what is common practice within the business, not what is legal according to law. Most experts in the field of O & G law have already said that was Chesapeake did was illegal.
The ALOV lease as a whole is regarded as one of the most landowner friendly leases out there - no O & G company will ever sign a lease giving landowners everything they'd like. NOWHERE (other than posts by WishGard employees) have I ever seen the WishGard lease considered as even acceptable!
Why not post an example of what YOU think is the best lease available?
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Mark
Adam is trying to say that the Pugh Clause in the ALOV/Buckeye lease allows for drilling a shallow well, then before the end of the primary (plus extension) term is up, simply PLANNING to drill a deeper lease, thereby holding the lease. He doesn't understand that this WOULD NOT meet the implied covenants of both production and use, and since landowners with an ALOV lease don't sign away their rights to implied covenant, they can challenge to have the lease terminated...
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Joe
This clause in WishGard's lease:
LEASE DEVELOPMENT. There is no implied covenant to drill, prevent drainage, further develop or market production within the primary term or any extension of term of this Lease. There shall be no Leasehold forfeiture, termination, expiration or cancellation for failure to comply with said implied covenants.
This what makes the WishGard lease SO much worse than most other leases! Those signing with WishGard (they never say anything to prospective signees about this clause) are further disallowed from what has become a landowners best friend when dealing with leases that are being unused/abused by drillers. Sadly, it IS a right landowners can sign away...but nowhere in the ALOV lease does it include a clause so detrimental to the landowner in the future management of his acreage...
I've brought this up many times in these forums, but with new landowners joining GMS all the time, I feel it's important to keep posting these so new members don't have to read through tons of other threads to get important information...
Tom
That's an excellent idea, but hard to expect from an O & G company! Imagine the logistical nightmares of supply pipelines, surface rights, etc. for an O & G company tied to only deep rights. Would work fine if the acreage is part of a horizontal drilling unit, though...
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Tom
I haven't seen the Beck/XTO agreement yet...you know of anywhere it's posted at?
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Tom
Thanks! I looked through the documents, however, and the ones posted are just agreements between Beck and XTO. Were there stipulations/language in the actual lease that landowners signed that separated shallow rights from deep rights, and made clear land surface usage, pipeline ROW, etc.?
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Tom
Thanks for hunting these up - I'd have taken forever looking for them myself! :-) The problem with them, though, is that they all deal with the Beck/XTO agreement - O & G companies often split the layers amongst themselves. If the landowners DID sign a standard lease with no addendums, the they most likely are locked into terms that include surface down to whatever layer they leased to - often stated in leases as "Middle-of-the-earth" depth. If this is the case, the landowner can't specify anything about which layer, surface usage (other than that included in their lease), ROW, etc..
I'd have to see the actual lease to know if the landowners retained the shallow rights, and any surface usage protections other than what is supplied by a standard lease. The standard Beck language you posted below looks like it allows the company to consolidate any parts of strata, not the landowners themselves... :-/
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Exactly, Tom...it gives BECK the the right to split and pool their leases, but not the landowners. This is common practice between O & G companies, but rarely do landowners have an opportunity to be able to specify in a lease what depths they are leasing without extensive language also in the lease about surface use, ROW, etc...
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Looks like we posted at the same time! :-D
Jan 16, 2012
Adam Thomas
...to open a loophole for the company they peddle their leases to. It starts out great but then they keep writing! Why? They had it right to start with. No need to write anything else if they were not opening a loophole!!! I am sure CHK requires it! They already have more acreage than they can drill horizontally in the next 10 years! Or are you foolish enough to believe that they aren't just a marketing took of CHK?
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Adam
Find ANY lease that isn't full of potential loopholes!!! As I asked before - why don't YOU post a perfect lease on here? The simple truth is that the Pugh Clause you claim is SO bad really isn't - it has many escape clauses for the landowner...
As far as ALOV being a tool for Chesapeake, maybe they are! Does it really matter, though, as long as the landowners themselves eventually get to decide on whether or not they were represented relatively fairly? If nothing else, ALOV saves its members tons of work and trouble trying to negotiate for themselves, and gets relatively high lease amounts for their members! I myself have problems with how ALOV has operated (mostly the lack of info to members during negotiations), but I'd feel a LOT better waiting as an ALOV member than I would signing early (without pay upfront) with anyone else...
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Tom
I think you misunderstand me...a landowner CAN separate strata in a lease, but the problem now is trying to get an O & G company to agree to do so! I've not heard of many landowners (except those few who have acreage that a company HAS to have) that have been able to do this... :-)
Jan 16, 2012
Adam Thomas
Tom, I never said all landowner groups are bad. I, for one, see that alot of them are led by people that do not have enough information on the subject to be able to lead anyone. In many cases, it is the blind leading the blind. I am sure some groups are good. But alot of them are being led by people that simply have no knowledge other than what they hear from people rather than doing the research and actually helping the people they are trying to help.
I personally feel there is NOT a person out there that will devote a year of their life to people and supposedly make everyone else these "great" deals and make the groups millions while they get nothing. Come on... lol That is why I am not in favor of the trumbull county group. They deal with one company and do all negotiations behind closed doors. The reason they are successful is because the average person takes the information provided by their leader as gospel. They don't do the research on their own. I have advocated education on this site time and time again. How many times have I said, do what is right for you. I do not promote a company on here. I simply give my opinion. The same as everyone else. Numerous people continue to berate any person that does not follow their own beliefs. I think it completely undermines the purpose of the site. Whether you agree or disagree is your right. Unfortunately, alot of people on here seem to be unable to seperate their opinions from facts and would rather argue than present information with an open mind and actually hold an intelligent discussion. I think most people that come to this site are not interested in the continuous opinion based arguements. I am sure you will bash me or attempt to spin everything thaty I actually said as you always do but I guess that is your right to. I read that you got into a group and I hope it works for you. However, I am sure you can at least admit that there is no guarentee to any of this shale thing unless you are in a proven area like you are. Congratulations to you for being in one of those areas. I am not and there is no guarentee that I ever will be. As a result, I will lease my property and put the money in the bank as I always have because that is what works best for me. I am not a big gambler and your opinion of what I should or should not do means nothing to me.
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Yes, I read the whole thread, actually - a LOT of reading! :-D I just know it's easy for someone to SAY something, but only facts will show whether what he says is true or not. I saw where Nate was asked to show his leases that reserved/separated strata within the lease, but he never posted them. I'm just thinking the logistics of a split-strata lease for an O & G company would almost always make them unwilling to sign one: Who controls the surface area, the shallow or the deep leaseholder? Which controls ROWs? In conflicts between the two, who would prevail? I'm sure there are many other potential conflicts in this scenario...
Since I first started researching oil and gas info about a year ago, I have read a LOT of leases from this site and through Google searches. I THINK that so far, I have read one signed within the last year where the landowner split his strata, and have read about a few others that O & G companies HAD to have where they were willing to agree to it. Unless a landowner is fortunate enough to own acreage in one of these absolutely necessary areas, I doubt he'd have much success getting an O & G company to agree to splitting strata. It IS always worth trying for, though!
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Adam
You do not promote a company on here???????
From the Trumbull County section:
Mr. Kerns,
This is Adam Thomas of who you spoke. I am very pleased to admit that I do represent Wishgard. I am a former client of theirs and when the development of the technology to commercially produce the Utica shale, I contacted them to come up here. I own 33 acres of my own in Ashtabula county and I wanted to get my own property involved with wishgard. I found very quickly that there was NO knowledge at all in the general public on the subject. I invited Wishgard to come up and educate people on how the industry works and how the leasing industry works. Before we started spreading the word, there was no ligitamate company offering more than $50 an acre in Ashtabula, Geauga, or northern Trumbull county. Instead of quietly screwing people over and leasing up acreage for $25-$50 an acre and make millions in a few weeks time, as we could have. We are offering as much as the market will handle with the information that is available in this area. By spreading the word and educating people, we are eliminating people from being taken advantage of..."
I found this in less than a minute...no need really for me to look for more exmples on this site of you advocating landowners to sign with WishGard to get the "guaranteed money", as you many times have put it...
Jan 16, 2012
Adam Thomas
Tom, bob rea signed a lease on his acrage in columbiana county a long time ago. What did he receive for his involvement with Carroll, mahonong, Trumbull? Not a better lease for himself. It must be the warm fuzzy feeling! Lol
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Thanks Bill! This is where I think Tom and I didn't see quite eye-to-eye...I was speaking of NEW leases being signed, not leases being redone, reworked, renegotiated, etc. where rig activity is already going on on a landowner's acreage. Landowners who own wells on their property already have a vested interest in the shallow rights that they wouldn't be expected to sign away, and as such has much more bargaining power than landowners with vacant land do... :-)
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Adam
Should I also go back and copy/paste all your posts where you said you and others were better off signing with WishGard and getting something even if the area becomes useless? Who do you think you ARE actually - an advocate for the landowner...the people that you are so busy trying to sign up to WishGard leases???
For you to actually post ANYWHERE on this site that you are not an advocate for WishGard is nothing more than a lie. Better for you to just say that yes, you are a landman for WishGard, and that therefore you have a vested interest in their success getting landowners to sign leases with WishGard. It would be no more honorable, but at least would be more truthful...
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
ad·vo·cate/ˈadvəkit/
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
No Tom...but again, that was an agreement between O & G companies, not between a company and the landowner directly. It is VERY difficult for a landowner to negotiate separating strata in a new lease unless there is some factor (oil company absolutely needing that acreage, landowner already using the shallow layer, etc.) that would make it necessary to separate them. As a matter of fact, I THINK that in the leases I have read that gave landowners separated strata, there was always a clause that gave the deep-rights holder first option at leasing even the shallow rights...
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
I don't, Bill...but unless the landowner has enough acreage to make up a big portion of a drilling unit, smaller landowners run the risk of being bypassed or forced pooled if they try for too much in a lease. This is exactly the reason I always advise landowners to either get into a landowners group or to at very least reach agreements with neighboring landowners - larger number of acres = more bargaining power! :-)
Jan 16, 2012
Adam Thomas
By the way, you avoided the question that I asked with your typical method. Why would bob Rae lease in other counties and make everyone else millions and get nothing. At the same time hold ALL negotiations behind closed doors? Please explain!!!!
Jan 16, 2012
Ed Ganelli
You've said several times that WishGard is currently negotiating the sales of their leases, Adam - why don't THEY disclose this info to landowners leased with them?
And again, Bob Rae MAY have made money with ALOV - no way really to prove one way or another whether or not he did - but no matter what, he DID make group members a better deal than they would have gotten by signing with a flipper company - more money per acre and a better lease...
Jan 16, 2012
Adam Thomas
Jan 16, 2012