Ashtabula County, OH

Adam...can you cut and paste ANY leases WishGard has signed, were unable to flip, and yet still paid the landowner?  Of COURSE not!

I KNOW I never said signing for "anything" would have been the smart move if a well comes up dry - UNLESS they were paid UPFRONT!  WishGard DOES NOT PAY upfront...as a matter of fact, they are now sending out certified letters to landowners that are beyond the agreed pay time certified requesting another 30 day extension, paying by bank draft that can require as much as 90 days for the bank to release the funds...ANYTHING to allow WishGard to flip the leases they have!

Again...why not disclose who WishGard is now in negotiations with...instead of keeping these negotiations "behind closed doors" as the terrible ALOV/Bob Rae has done?

You never said what I said you did, Adam?  From one of your posts on page 10 of this thread (if you haven't already deleted it!):

Comment by Adam Thomas on January 8, 2012 at 12:38pm Edward, I do not understand why do not realize that the price offered in NE ohio is purely speculation. Yes Wishgard is currently in the process of getting a deal made for the landowners we represent so that they can get paid...

LOL, Tom!  If you think he educates on this site, you should hear the "education" he hands out at the Wishgard signups!  :-D

hi ed

   have you deceided to go with a particulier group? do you work for one of the groups? i am new to the site and trying to figure things out . thanks

Hi Brynmore!  I'm actually a part (a SMALL part!) of a group of neighbors who have formed a group centered in and around Wayne Twp. in Ashtabula County totalling roughly 6000 contiguous acres now (although the landowner who put the group together has recently had several requests from landowners who comprise a little over 2000 more contiguous acres within a mile of our group who want to become part of our group).  I've done TONS of research into oil and gas and the leasing that goes with it, have a legal research background, but I don't work for any group.  My advice to you would be to read up as much as you can about oil and gas leasing, talk with neighbors and other landowners in your area to see if THEY'RE already in a landgroup, and not be in any hurry to lease.  A good place to start would be to watch for the next Buckeye Mineral presentation meeting and attend it, and also watch for the occassional meetings the Farm Bureau holds about leasing and attend those.  Hope it helps!  Good luck!   :-)

Treatment of other members and site updates. This site is a community, so we expect our members to treat each other cordially and respectfully. In that spirt, there is zero tolerance for attacks on, or harassment of other site members.." 

I re-read what I agreed to when I signed up. All I can say is, Ed, Tom and Cobra, you are in violation of this with your continuous "cyber bullying". This is getting real old.

Cyber-bullying???  By pointing out facts to people who come to this site and not backing down from the abusive attacks that are then put on here by Adam Thomas and other WishGard reps?  It's quite odd that you mentioned those of us who are anti-WishGard by name, but "forgot" to add Adam in there!  I looked back through some of your posts...you seem to be pushing WishGard quite often yourself, so I'm guessing you're just one more WishGard rep...

Tom, Bill and I all disagree about the splitting of shallow and deep rights in a lease, yet we've debated it throughout the day yesterday with NO animosity towards each other - differing opinions don't mean that I dislike either of them (I actually respect their thoughts and opinions).

I DO have a huge problem with a company like WishGard, though!  Any company that looks to take advantage of others is, in my opinion, a predatory business.  I've been to their "educational" meetings...heard the high-pressure sales pitch to landowners, and heard the one thing that is the biggest lie they say at these sign-ups - "This area is unproven!  If you wait, it may prove decent and you'll get better money...but if it proves useless, you'll get nothing.  Better to sign now with WishGard for 1600 and be guaranteed of getting at least that much then, and since the real money is in the royalties anyways, does it matter that much?"  If the area's useless, then WishGard will get nothing for their leases, so neither will the landowners who sign with them!  Royalties?  Landowners at BEST have a 60 - 75% chance of ever being included in a drilling unit, and no guarantee even for those that it will be anytime soon!  WishGard is leasing without the financial backing to pay for their leases.  If brokers on Wall Street are not allowed to invest unless they can show they have the resources to meet call, then why should WishGard be able to do basically the same?  One needs only to look at what is happening in Michigan between landowners and Chesapeake to see an easy comparison with what WishGard does - Chesapeake set up shell companies then didn't pay when the area was worthless.  Now Chesapeake is being sued.  Their defense is that this is common practice in the O & G industry.  The landowners assertion is that, BY LAW, it is illegal.  If the ruling goes in favor of the landowners, WishGard and other flippers will be out of business.

I guess that if lying and misrepresenting the company you work for is cordial and respectful to others, then times really HAVE changed a lot!

Well said, Bill...I couldn't agree with you more!

You, I, and many others on this site can (and often have) have honest debates about differing viewpoints and opinions, and nobody ever sees a problem with it.  Why?  Because none of us have some underlying agenda that benefits ourselves!  WishGard, their agents, and other flipper companies and their reps DO, however, have an agenda - the promotion of their company for the $25 an acre commission they receive.  If they spread misinformation, half-truths and sometimes outright lies, they should expect to be argued against with cold, hard facts.  I know of 9 people so far on this site that have contacted me here, and several others who have contacted me via e-mail or in person, who were strongly considering leasing to WishGard until they read through posts on this site.  NONE of these decided to sign, and are instead spreading the same facts I've presented to their friends, neighbors and other contacts.  That's roughly 15 landowners (if each convinced just 2 others to reconsider leasing to flippers, it's 45) with a little over 2000 acres that WishGard DIDN'T get...how can that be a bad thing for anyone other WishGard and their agents?

WishGard doesn't just send people from their home office area to seek leases...they recruit local people who already have businesses, contacts, and the trust of those in the targetted areas.  I don't fault any of these people at first - it looks like easy money with no victim - but sooner or later these local reps have to see that they are marketing a product to people they know and who respect them that is backed by nothing and in the long run is detrimental to a landowners best interests.  Some quit working for WishGard at this point, those who continue as WishGard reps anyways will find out eventually that the leasing boom in their area has run it's course, and they'll have to return to the occupations they were in before Wishgard hit the area.  Have any of then ever considered how much their affiliation with WishGard will affect their standings as a respected businessperson then?

I know several have grown tired of the constant back and forth between site members such as myself and WishGard reps...I can understand this!  However, new people sign up to this site daily seeking information, and the continued debate about all flipper companies is best kept as recent as possible - as the site grows, it becomes more and more difficult to go back through countless sections, pages and threads to find information.  If just one person each day is able to quickly and easily find factual information that keeps them from making a rash decision and signing their valuable mineral rights away to disreputable companies and/or land agents, then I do believe it was all worth it!

The Lake County group has been approved.

Lake County, OH

I'd agree that visits to the site have dropped recently - there just isn't any new news or info being posted for now.  Most who have been members of this site have read again and again most of what has been brought up here in the past few days (until yesterday, it had been a week since I posted last, actually - nothing new to say, so no need to).  It;s the NEW members who find this useful, though - since yesterday, I've had 4 members who are brand new to the site contact me or add me on here...it's THEY who need info the rest of us have already seen on here.

Bill...you're ABSOLUTELY right about having a good attorney look over any lease!  In a discussion I had recently with my State representative (Casey Kozlowski), he said that consulting an attorney before committing to anything is his first advice to them.  This has been stated many, MANY times throughout this site, but it's something that can't be repeated enough...

It appears Wishgard is now targeting Lake County

http://gomarcellusshale.com/groups/2274639:Group:222346?xg_source=m...

:-(  Oil and gas interest hasn't really hit Lake County much yet...hopefully your Lake County group will get a lot more members soon!  I'd hate to see more uninformed landowners going into leasing with not enough info on what is really going on...

I'm hearing rumors that the well at the Logan site is off (at least for now) because the lease for the proposed well site (an old one on Logan property) has a 160 acre limitation on drilling unit size and the landowner won't allow for expansion of the unit size without renegotiating with Chesapeake.  Anyone else able to confirm this?

And...anyone know of activity yet at the Richmond site?

Mark, The logans are on ST. RT. 193 in Gustavus township close to the Ashtabula county line.

Right, Mark..and what you say brings up a very important point - if you're a landowner who is already leased under an existing lease and then get an addendum sheet to sign, GO TO AN ATTORNEY about it!  The O & G company that holds the lease isn't going to ask for changes unless they have to!

I live in southern Ashtabula county and have been approached by Wishgard about a lease. Of course after reading many comments, I would in no shape or form sign with them. Can anyone tell me of any upcoming meetings/gatherings about leasing, joining land owner groups, land owner protection, etc ? I would greatly appreciate any info I can get.

Bryan.  The Eastern Ashtabula Landowners Association will be holding a few meetings very soon. The First meeting was in Pierpont and was well received. They will be working with Bob Rea of Buckeye Mineral.

eala.shale@gmail.com

My husband attended the last mtg in Pierpont and heard they were going to look into having more mtgs, is there a way to be notified when/if there are more?  Or will it just be posted on here?

There will be a Buckeye Mineral meeting on Feb. 2nd at 7:00 pm at the Pymatuning High School.

Thank you Lance!

If you are looking for information on Buckeye, or any other mineral company, you really need to go to a meeting. At the very least send someone who you are willing to bet your property on. There will be information, including an email address. What is most important is to attend the meeting. Get the information.

heard  jerry lamiere in jefferson specializies in bankruptcy and also o&g issues . has an extensive o&g background

mark , do you think that jerry lamiere would be biased?

When you say biased do you mean that the attorney also represents a gas/oil company etc and that he won't go 100% to help you find if you own the rights?

Biased or non biased. I am lost here. Can you fill in the blanks for me without getting in trouble. I thought a good O&G attornery is just that.

When you have to pay big bucks for their services I would expect big buck service in return. Are these attorneys rated online anywhere or has anyone out there hired them for O&G research and leases? Has anyone out there hired any other O&G attorney on their own?

I welcome all feedback. Just like Wishgard. They approached me and I never knew anything about them until readers like you filled in all the blanks.

Jerry Lemire is experienced with the oil and gas leases.  I'm not sure what you mean by biased but I do know he has much experience with these.  I know several landowners he has helped regarding the oil and gas leases, regardless of which leasing company you choose to work with.

i have only heard from some people that i know that have went to him in the past for this service and from people that known him personally. from what i can gather he had around 15 years working in the gas and oil business and it slowed down in the 80's and turned to law. i know that i feel the same as many other people when i saw that most lawyers(90%) are over paid crooks as most of our politicians , but we need them to pass laws and to interpet them also . so if he would be biased because he works out of ashtabula county i dont know either way . seems like a pretty stand up guy from my accounts

i was wondering if some other people are having the same concerns as me as this whole lease business. my concern is that i sign a lease with a land group and get some upfront bonus money and a promise of some royalities, but dont end up getting in a drilling unit for what ever reason. could this become a reality, and if so besides getting my neighbors informed what else can be done? also if i have 2 neighbors 1 signs with nela 1 signs with wisgard and i sign with a land owner group and each of the three parcels are say 10 acres each what happens? thanks for your time

I think Ashtabula County landowners need to be prepared for the long haul with this O/G play going on. Not much history on what is  actually down there. And it not like the drillers are lining up equipment to invade the county. Please attend all the different meetings going on and learn as much as you can. Here in Ashtabula we have been through all the pie in the sky stuff over the last 40 years , so I'm not getting to excited ..yet.

Mark, I agree with you. I feel the same way, but wasn't sure if I was right or wrong in thinking that way. Thanks for answering many of my questions.  From the first day when Wishgard offered $1,600, my husband wanted me to rush back up there and sign. I told him, before I sign, I was going to check into it and find out all I could. It isn't like it was 'now or never', and if it was, then I would have to pass on it anyway, because I don't trust that kind of deal.  I am glad I held out (my husband is too). We went to a meeting the other night, (buckeye mineral) and again he is ready to sign up. Though the meeting was informative and i liked what I heard, I still believe there is no rush at this point to sign anything with anyone. I plan to continue learning all I can in the mean time.  Attending meetings, looking up on the internet, talking to others  and even reading these comments help alot. So thanks. I have 27 acres and I'd rather pass up an opportunity for $$ and end up with nothing, than to know I signed for a small amount and somebody else is making a killing on my land. PS is there a place like this that I can follow comments on the buckye mineral dev.? Or is this the place I need to be. Again thanks. Claudia

http://www.plsx.com/?specificpage=listings/index.php&&direc...

http://www.energynet.com/ncp_listing.pl

brynmore,

The two links above are just two of many companies and websites dedicated to allowing oil and gas companies to trade lease parcels amongst themselves. In a particular listing there may be hundreds of parcels, but that doesn't mean the prospective buyer has to take them all. I recently inquired about some parcels in my home county that were part of a larger package and found that the seller would consider offers on individual parcels or the whole package or anything in between.

Bill,

Mark McG is absolutely correct in telling you to organize, but in smaller groups. There are, on average 23,000 acres in a township. If you can organize with neighbors just within a township and present that package of mostly contiguous acres to oil and gas companies, you can present them with some extra value when compared to going it alone. The different perspectives of neighbors will bring lease concerns to light that an individual may not have thought of. When landowner groups become too large, not all oil and gas companies are able to lease that much at one time. The price tag may scare off some smaller or mid-size companies who could do a fine job developing a smaller leasehold. You might be as well off to just pool a couple of contiguous drilling units with your immediate neighbors and work toward getting the best deal for the neighborhood instead of worrying about the whole township, county, or region. I know of a producer who wants to put together 1 or 2 drilling units in a particular area on the gamble that it will prove profitable. They cannot afford to pay the huge up-front bonuses we are currently seeing but are more than willing to be very generous on the royalty side and with their lease terms. You won't get that from the Chesapeakes and Shells and Gulfports of the world and too large of a landgroup will make those kinds of opportunities unavailable to you. My advice is to organize and educate the members of your group now. Think about the kinds of opportunities that your group is willing to look at. When opportunity knocks, you should be ready to answer.

finnbear

    interesting , cause i thought that if you were in a land group and they had 30000 acres and the group presented the them to say gulfport it is offered as a total package, opposed to cherry picking the best acres

i have been researching through my owners policy and the last lease was in 1986 . does anyone know how you would tell how long the lease was for ? and how it would be written if the rights were sold, with out making a trip to the recorders office

Brynmore--

This might help.

http://cotthosting.com/ohashtabula/LandRecords/protected/SrchQuickN...

jackie

   i have been to that site already and they do not have the actual lease to view even after i had made an account

mark

   just trying to learn , inform myself and maybe ask questions that might be on some other ashtabula landowners minds

Title Company would be able to get you a copy of the actual lease.   

For what it's worth, at the last EALA meeting, Bob Rea (Buckeye Mineral) said that he intends to market the group's Ashtabula acreage both as a whole and as individual pieces (probably townships).  The goal is to capture the best of both worlds...  the big combined acreage total will attract large drillers who will only look at 50,000+ acres at a time, but at the same time they can still get competitive bids from smaller drillers with less financial resources.  This seems like the best approach to me.  From what I hear, the combined approach is certainly paying off for ALOV's Trumbull County group (96,000 acres).  There is safety in numbers.