Many landowners are excited to learn of expected bonuses and royalties they may be receiving. However, down the road when they sign leases many will find out that after examination by lawyers from the Oil/Gas companies that they own nothing because of old active leases or that they do not own any mineral rights or royalties. Many properties have leases going back 50+ years and are pages long of transfers, sell offs, consolidations, etc. Most homeowners are not aware of this because when they bought their property years ago they were only thinking of property to build a barn and ride horses. Oil/gas leases were the farthest things from their mind. Fast forward to the end of 2011 and now Utica shale is all they can talk about. I wish most of the landowners good luck but from listening to folks from southern/mid Ohio ,reading the Web and attending some meetings many stories are out there about homeowners who own the land but yet someone who is laughing all the way to the bank owns the mineral rights, bonuses and royalties.
Unfortuate but true in not all but some cases. This is where a good title search or good Attorney comes in. If you are an 8-5 guy and try to figure out if you own your royalties/mineral rights good luck. Too much wording for a commoner. I would rather pay for an expert for peace of mind than to wait a year only to be disappointed.
Anyone have thoughts or comments on this rationale?
The problem here is that people are trying to understand what an attorney means by hiring another attorney. You have to deal with people you trust first. "I" do not trust attorneys. I trust the successfull people that live around me. Maybe I'm wrong here, but this is what has always worked for me.
There is a ton of old leases in the county as well as HBP acreage and with the size of the county it's going to be a big job getting all this figured out. They are doing big time seismic testing north of Rt 6 and that land is held by Enervest. Might not be as many free acres as you think in the county.
I attended one of their meetings in Jefferson and feel they are very honest just like Buckeye Minerals ALOV. They only make money if you do. The lease looks fairly good (online if you want to look at it). If you sign with them you can get out just by sending an E-mail. This group is a law firm and they are very knowledgeable as they practice in Ohio and PA. They charge 8% of the signing bonus only. Everything else is all yours.
Buckeye charges less but it comes down to who you want to sign with and have representation down the road. Look at Wishgard and all the other flippers out there.
I also went to the Buckeye ALOV meeting in Andover and they are also very good.
I am signing with the first, best and safest offer out there.
Hello to all, Bill, I also attended a meeting of and for the F&M Landowners Group #2 ( the Washington Lawyers), and just want to clear up a few things to maybe help and to avoid any confusion, i did ask them specific questions concerning some of their vague representations. The meeting was the one in Cortland, OH (Trumbull county), on Thursday Feb.16th..
Their literature makes vague representations and they led the meeting with mentioning those same points, so i asked them quite specifically and in plain language, they answered in more vague terms as most lawyers will do, even when pressed to be specific, they were vague and even tried to lead the discussion away from my questions.
My questions were these, and their answers are not direct quotes, they are from my notes made at the meeting and to the best of my memeory;
Question: In your presentation you make mention of Water Testing and Royalty Management, along with other continuing landowner events and information. Specifically, do you have a water testing program in place with a third party vendor and do you represent us in the event of a water quality issue, as a paid up service, as part of the package deal, inclusive of the 8% fee of and from our advance money.
Answer: NO, we would be there to assist you for an additional fee, but the 8% fee only covers services rendered up to the day you get paid and we get paid.
Question: Again you made mention of Royaltry Management as a service you offer. Do you offer Royalty Audits and assistance as a paid up service as part of your 8% fee.
Answer: NO, we can assist you in these and other matters for additional fee's. We do however offer many educational materials as part of our service and sometimes third party vendors may offer to make presentations to our groups in order to promote their business's.
Yeah, well the county public libraries also offer many educational materials, and i do believe they are free to the public. Most libraries have computers available to patrons, and the internet has great access to educational materials as well.
Question: Your fee is 8% of our advance rentals"Bonus Payment" money, correct (yes). What do you do for me if i own 100 acres, that involves more effort on your part, than you do for the next guy that owns forty acres? What i mean is the largest part of your work is in producing a good lease, you did that once, and use the same one for all the groups you represent. You make efforts to find a Lessee, for us but it requires no more effort for any one person in the group, than for the group as a whole. Would it not be more attractive to us who own the larger acreage's to charge a flat fee per member?
Answer: (Very Weak) some of our addendums are of no use to the members who own 5 acres, but are important to those of you who own 100 acres.( ???? What the F? is that!)
You guys know me, i dont write cute and slightly humorous attention grabbing and mildly prophetic stories like Ron E., when i chime in it's straight and to the point. I strongly believe in landowner groups, you know where i stand on most of the issues here and if you read my post's you know what kind of man i am. I dont want to argue with anyone here, i dont have any reason to. when i chime in here it is in an attempt to help, only that. Landowner groups are the only sporting chance we have, but you need to control the agenda, and the fees, as well as be firm and realistic in what you are asking for from the O&G company's. You have the power, you have what they want, stand up and be strong. Be just, but be firm. The market can be controlled by the one who has the goods, and the time to wait for the right buyer. These attorney's are asking outragous fees and need to have a reality check. Also most flippers should prob. be tarred and feathered and run out of the state. All my 2cents worth.
Hi Mark, A flat per acre fee is more agreable i guess, than high percentage fee's, but would that take the incentive out of working hard for the group.
I think 2% is a good fee, i mean hey we are already used to 2% milk, so why not.
I also think the flat fee is better,would rather see a flat fee per member,being we are a group of equals with same lease no matter how much acreage ,say 250 per member.although a percentage based fee gives our negotiator more incentive to get us the highest possible bonus !!!
Just wondering if you agreed to pay microsoft a certain percentage for the use of the windows software program (your retirement plan may even own their stock) even though they did the work back during the 80's - and you may only own a few computers rather than a company who has paid them hundreds of times for each of their employees computers. Just sayin - that is pretty standard capitalism.
Its not about the % its about everybody that is in the group are now one entity ,with same lease,how many acres should not matter,the lease applies to each and every acre.
Mark, I agree on this to 8 percent is to much. I believe Buckeye mineral will prevail in Ashtabula when all is said and done. A better lease and at 2 3/4 percent.
Hi again, Hi Casey, Standard capitalism, yeah i guess we have had some infiltration by socialistic types here but i am definatley not one of them, but what i am is a control freak(my wife & kids tell me that, too personal -i know lol). I believe in negotiations in fee's and costs, standing up together and saying, yes i would like your help, but your price is too high. There is much money too be made here, but i dont ever give anyone a blank check, here is what we are willing to pay.
We have the strength in numbers, like never before we rural Americans have some things strongly in our favor. We have numbers, we have the commodity the world needs, we have our land, and we have time. We need to stay unified even though we all come from different walks of life, and political convictions to some degree, we are for the most part a rural people with land, land that has much more wealth below the surface, in most cases, than above the surface.
What we dont have is the equipment, capital, or know how to get to it. So we need a partner in big oil, but big oil does not like to partner with the landowner. Big oil has a worldwide history of getting what it wants by hook or by crook, as my dad used to say.
In other parts of the world the lands residents are incidental, someone to push aside too get to what they want, after they have made their deals with the governing body for the resources.
In days gone by, and in some cases still today, many of the people of the hills and mountains or the back country where the resources are found, lacked in many things including to some degree education, and they were taken advantage of by big coal company's and big oil to get the leases.
Well now we have a ready means to educate ourselves on whatever topic we need to and to come together with other's of like mind, regardless of distance. So lets continue to use it to our advantage, and to stand together for the purposes we have all commited to, and don't allow ourselves to be picked off one by one or slaughtered like sheep.
Get educated on the subject, band together with neighbors, and the online community, be reasonable and strong, and lets accept this blessing for what it is, and allow it to revitalize our community's and ourselves.
Then lets all go somewhere warm for a visit where the drinks come with umbrellas and the beer is served ice cold and sometimes with a slice of lime. OHH... YEAH!
I belive there is a meeting this week in jefferson ohio at the community center. does anyone know who is sponcering this meeting and is it something anyone knows more about?
I went to a F&M landowner meeting over a month ago. Although they seemed to have good intentions, the 8% still seems kind of high. Buckeye Mineral is the way to go. Strength/Safety in numbers.
From the Gulfport Investors Presentation this has some good info about the progress of the drilling and some plans for the utica. map of ohio does not look good for northern ashtabula, imo. thought it was interesting
Actually, Mark, Enervest already has large blocks of acreage...are doing 3-D seismic testing in a block from Williamsfield north to Cherry Valley between Rt. 193 and Stanhope-Kelloggsville Rd. More than 2/3 of the enclosed acreage is already leased by Enervest...
When you say a lot of Ashtabula is under lease do you mean that those properties have very old leases from way back and are not owned by the current land owners or do you mean that this is newly signed up acreage?
Also, not to be dumb but what is a portfolio going out for bid. This is all greek to me. I'm just a residential 8-5 landowner.
Yes Bill..... Over half the county has active leases. Alot of these organizations are fighting to get the other half. Obviously where it gets into gray areas are the wells which have'nt produced and have been abandoned. It all leads to how language is written in those leases. However, what I have been told... that the signing bonus.. whatever it may be will not compare to the royalties. Royalties will far exceed any bonus. The signing bonus is great..if your lucky. Dan is correct in what he has said. This is coming... patience will be needed. this is not BS.... I was sat down and told by geologists who were also part of the boom that happened in southern Ohio. This is going to change the atmosphere of Ashtabula.
I noticed on the ODNR Mineral resource site that the once permitted well for Richmond Township is no longer on the list of permits. Anyone have information about the permit? Was is withdrawn?
That's the rumor that it was pushed out, not sure if the permits have a expiration date maybe they just let it expire. I do know the landowners around that site had their water tested by CHK.
Enervest has pulled a permit to drill a test well in Rome township along State rt 45. I did some more checking on the Richmond permit and it is still listed and active, if I read right the permit is good for 1 year and was issued 10/4/2011. Chesapeake may have pushed back the drilling but it looks like the permit is still good.
Also The Star Beacon has a piece on all the testing that Enervest is doing in the county, 18 square miles.
Hunter, need to go the the ODNR oil and gas well search data base and go to reports/Permit Plug list , then fill in the top three lines , the first box needs to be = from the drop down box on all three lines, next the date of 2/27/12 is entered on line #1, line#2 use the drop down box and click Ashtabula, the last box is for township , use the drop down and click Rome. upper left corner click the report button that should do it. Good luck
I think it is interesting that no specifics from ALOV regarding the two counties but if you look on Ashtabula County's recorder's website, there are many, many Wishgard leases recorded between the Fall 2011 and March 16.
James Kerns
Depolarized Farmer have you heard some news about ALOV's Trumbull county group that you can share?
Feb 7, 2012
Bill Simpson
Many landowners are excited to learn of expected bonuses and royalties they may be receiving. However, down the road when they sign leases many will find out that after examination by lawyers from the Oil/Gas companies that they own nothing because of old active leases or that they do not own any mineral rights or royalties. Many properties have leases going back 50+ years and are pages long of transfers, sell offs, consolidations, etc. Most homeowners are not aware of this because when they bought their property years ago they were only thinking of property to build a barn and ride horses. Oil/gas leases were the farthest things from their mind. Fast forward to the end of 2011 and now Utica shale is all they can talk about. I wish most of the landowners good luck but from listening to folks from southern/mid Ohio ,reading the Web and attending some meetings many stories are out there about homeowners who own the land but yet someone who is laughing all the way to the bank owns the mineral rights, bonuses and royalties.
Unfortuate but true in not all but some cases. This is where a good title search or good Attorney comes in. If you are an 8-5 guy and try to figure out if you own your royalties/mineral rights good luck. Too much wording for a commoner. I would rather pay for an expert for peace of mind than to wait a year only to be disappointed.
Anyone have thoughts or comments on this rationale?
Feb 8, 2012
lance loveridge
The problem here is that people are trying to understand what an attorney means by hiring another attorney. You have to deal with people you trust first. "I" do not trust attorneys. I trust the successfull people that live around me. Maybe I'm wrong here, but this is what has always worked for me.
Feb 8, 2012
Dan
There is a ton of old leases in the county as well as HBP acreage and with the size of the county it's going to be a big job getting all this figured out. They are doing big time seismic testing north of Rt 6 and that land is held by Enervest. Might not be as many free acres as you think in the county.
Feb 8, 2012
brynmore
might anyone know what group or organization is putting the o&g meeting on that is at jefferson community center on the 23rd at 630?thanks
Feb 19, 2012
Dan
Looks like it is the F&M Landowners Group #2 ( the Washington Lawyers)
Feb 19, 2012
Bill Simpson
Feb 19, 2012
john p halloran
Feb 19, 2012
Bill Simpson
I also went to the Buckeye ALOV meeting in Andover and they are also very good.
I am signing with the first, best and safest offer out there.
Feb 19, 2012
James Kerns
Hello to all, Bill, I also attended a meeting of and for the F&M Landowners Group #2 ( the Washington Lawyers), and just want to clear up a few things to maybe help and to avoid any confusion, i did ask them specific questions concerning some of their vague representations. The meeting was the one in Cortland, OH (Trumbull county), on Thursday Feb.16th..
Their literature makes vague representations and they led the meeting with mentioning those same points, so i asked them quite specifically and in plain language, they answered in more vague terms as most lawyers will do, even when pressed to be specific, they were vague and even tried to lead the discussion away from my questions.
My questions were these, and their answers are not direct quotes, they are from my notes made at the meeting and to the best of my memeory;
Question: In your presentation you make mention of Water Testing and Royalty Management, along with other continuing landowner events and information. Specifically, do you have a water testing program in place with a third party vendor and do you represent us in the event of a water quality issue, as a paid up service, as part of the package deal, inclusive of the 8% fee of and from our advance money.
Answer: NO, we would be there to assist you for an additional fee, but the 8% fee only covers services rendered up to the day you get paid and we get paid.
Question: Again you made mention of Royaltry Management as a service you offer. Do you offer Royalty Audits and assistance as a paid up service as part of your 8% fee.
Answer: NO, we can assist you in these and other matters for additional fee's. We do however offer many educational materials as part of our service and sometimes third party vendors may offer to make presentations to our groups in order to promote their business's.
Yeah, well the county public libraries also offer many educational materials, and i do believe they are free to the public. Most libraries have computers available to patrons, and the internet has great access to educational materials as well.
Question: Your fee is 8% of our advance rentals"Bonus Payment" money, correct (yes). What do you do for me if i own 100 acres, that involves more effort on your part, than you do for the next guy that owns forty acres? What i mean is the largest part of your work is in producing a good lease, you did that once, and use the same one for all the groups you represent. You make efforts to find a Lessee, for us but it requires no more effort for any one person in the group, than for the group as a whole. Would it not be more attractive to us who own the larger acreage's to charge a flat fee per member?
Answer: (Very Weak) some of our addendums are of no use to the members who own 5 acres, but are important to those of you who own 100 acres.( ???? What the F? is that!)
You guys know me, i dont write cute and slightly humorous attention grabbing and mildly prophetic stories like Ron E., when i chime in it's straight and to the point. I strongly believe in landowner groups, you know where i stand on most of the issues here and if you read my post's you know what kind of man i am. I dont want to argue with anyone here, i dont have any reason to. when i chime in here it is in an attempt to help, only that. Landowner groups are the only sporting chance we have, but you need to control the agenda, and the fees, as well as be firm and realistic in what you are asking for from the O&G company's. You have the power, you have what they want, stand up and be strong. Be just, but be firm. The market can be controlled by the one who has the goods, and the time to wait for the right buyer. These attorney's are asking outragous fees and need to have a reality check. Also most flippers should prob. be tarred and feathered and run out of the state. All my 2cents worth.
Best of Luck to All
Feb 19, 2012
James Kerns
Hi Mark, A flat per acre fee is more agreable i guess, than high percentage fee's, but would that take the incentive out of working hard for the group.
I think 2% is a good fee, i mean hey we are already used to 2% milk, so why not.
Feb 19, 2012
john p halloran
Feb 19, 2012
Casey O'Brien
James,
Just wondering if you agreed to pay microsoft a certain percentage for the use of the windows software program (your retirement plan may even own their stock) even though they did the work back during the 80's - and you may only own a few computers rather than a company who has paid them hundreds of times for each of their employees computers. Just sayin - that is pretty standard capitalism.
Feb 19, 2012
john p halloran
Feb 19, 2012
Craig Stull
Mark, I agree on this to 8 percent is to much. I believe Buckeye mineral will prevail in Ashtabula when all is said and done. A better lease and at 2 3/4 percent.
Feb 19, 2012
James Kerns
Hi again, Hi Casey, Standard capitalism, yeah i guess we have had some infiltration by socialistic types here but i am definatley not one of them, but what i am is a control freak(my wife & kids tell me that, too personal -i know lol). I believe in negotiations in fee's and costs, standing up together and saying, yes i would like your help, but your price is too high. There is much money too be made here, but i dont ever give anyone a blank check, here is what we are willing to pay.
Feb 19, 2012
James Kerns
We have the strength in numbers, like never before we rural Americans have some things strongly in our favor. We have numbers, we have the commodity the world needs, we have our land, and we have time. We need to stay unified even though we all come from different walks of life, and political convictions to some degree, we are for the most part a rural people with land, land that has much more wealth below the surface, in most cases, than above the surface.
What we dont have is the equipment, capital, or know how to get to it. So we need a partner in big oil, but big oil does not like to partner with the landowner. Big oil has a worldwide history of getting what it wants by hook or by crook, as my dad used to say.
In other parts of the world the lands residents are incidental, someone to push aside too get to what they want, after they have made their deals with the governing body for the resources.
In days gone by, and in some cases still today, many of the people of the hills and mountains or the back country where the resources are found, lacked in many things including to some degree education, and they were taken advantage of by big coal company's and big oil to get the leases.
Well now we have a ready means to educate ourselves on whatever topic we need to and to come together with other's of like mind, regardless of distance. So lets continue to use it to our advantage, and to stand together for the purposes we have all commited to, and don't allow ourselves to be picked off one by one or slaughtered like sheep.
Get educated on the subject, band together with neighbors, and the online community, be reasonable and strong, and lets accept this blessing for what it is, and allow it to revitalize our community's and ourselves.
Then lets all go somewhere warm for a visit where the drinks come with umbrellas and the beer is served ice cold and sometimes with a slice of lime. OHH... YEAH!
Feb 19, 2012
Ronaround
I belive there is a meeting this week in jefferson ohio at the community center. does anyone know who is sponcering this meeting and is it something anyone knows more about?
Feb 20, 2012
Craig Stull
Ron, F&M land group #2 www.ohiogaslawyers.com 740 282-1911
Feb 21, 2012
Bryan
I went to a F&M landowner meeting over a month ago. Although they seemed to have good intentions, the 8% still seems kind of high. Buckeye Mineral is the way to go. Strength/Safety in numbers.
Feb 25, 2012
brynmore
From the Gulfport Investors Presentation this has some good info about the progress of the drilling and some plans for the utica. map of ohio does not look good for northern ashtabula, imo. thought it was interesting
Feb 27, 2012
john p halloran
I also don't see anything preclude ashtabula,it looks like gulfport is not in ashtabula county yet.
Feb 27, 2012
Ed Ganelli
Actually, Mark, Enervest already has large blocks of acreage...are doing 3-D seismic testing in a block from Williamsfield north to Cherry Valley between Rt. 193 and Stanhope-Kelloggsville Rd. More than 2/3 of the enclosed acreage is already leased by Enervest...
Feb 27, 2012
Michael Kromer
Its coming...... Big players are coming in by April 2013.
Feb 27, 2012
brynmore
mark
from page 3 of the report when i zoomed in to the utica it does not look real prosperous for northern ashtabula
Feb 27, 2012
john p halloran
The map I looked at did not have ashtabula county on it.
Feb 27, 2012
Dan
The thinking is the point Pleasant line ends in Northern Ashtabula county thus not as much rich organic reserves. Who knows whats really down there..
Feb 27, 2012
brynmore
john p halloran
i was basing my opionion on the map of ohio that was on page 3 under the utica formation
Feb 27, 2012
john p halloran
ok
Feb 27, 2012
Michael Kromer
I was told by geologists that testing was done and there is more gas ---wet gas in Ashtabula county than any other county in Ohio.
Also portfolios are going out for bid towards the end of this year. Alot of Ashtabula is under lease. Probably half the county.
Feb 27, 2012
john p halloran
Feb 27, 2012
Bill Simpson
When you say a lot of Ashtabula is under lease do you mean that those properties have very old leases from way back and are not owned by the current land owners or do you mean that this is newly signed up acreage?
Also, not to be dumb but what is a portfolio going out for bid. This is all greek to me. I'm just a residential 8-5 landowner.
Thx
Feb 28, 2012
Dan
There are a ton of old active leases in the county. Enervest is doing lots of testing in the south county.
Feb 28, 2012
Michael Kromer
Yes Bill..... Over half the county has active leases. Alot of these organizations are fighting to get the other half. Obviously where it gets into gray areas are the wells which have'nt produced and have been abandoned. It all leads to how language is written in those leases. However, what I have been told... that the signing bonus.. whatever it may be will not compare to the royalties. Royalties will far exceed any bonus. The signing bonus is great..if your lucky. Dan is correct in what he has said. This is coming... patience will be needed. this is not BS.... I was sat down and told by geologists who were also part of the boom that happened in southern Ohio. This is going to change the atmosphere of Ashtabula.
Feb 28, 2012
hunter4440
I noticed on the ODNR Mineral resource site that the once permitted well for Richmond Township is no longer on the list of permits. Anyone have information about the permit? Was is withdrawn?
Feb 29, 2012
Robert Barr
Feb 29, 2012
hunter4440
Thats not the kind of news I want to hear, however, I believe CHK have their hands full in Carroll and other areas.
Feb 29, 2012
Dan
That's the rumor that it was pushed out, not sure if the permits have a expiration date maybe they just let it expire. I do know the landowners around that site had their water tested by CHK.
Feb 29, 2012
Dan
Enervest has pulled a permit to drill a test well in Rome township along State rt 45. I did some more checking on the Richmond permit and it is still listed and active, if I read right the permit is good for 1 year and was issued 10/4/2011. Chesapeake may have pushed back the drilling but it looks like the permit is still good.
Also The Star Beacon has a piece on all the testing that Enervest is doing in the county, 18 square miles.
Mar 2, 2012
hunter4440
Dan..thanks for the information. For some reason I'm not finding the Enervest permit. Can you please send the page where it is listed.
Mar 3, 2012
Dan
Hunter, need to go the the ODNR oil and gas well search data base and go to reports/Permit Plug list , then fill in the top three lines , the first box needs to be = from the drop down box on all three lines, next the date of 2/27/12 is entered on line #1, line#2 use the drop down box and click Ashtabula, the last box is for township , use the drop down and click Rome. upper left corner click the report button that should do it. Good luck
Mar 3, 2012
Dain Liard
any new offers???
Mar 3, 2012
hunter4440
Dan... still no luck finding the Enervest permit for Rome Township. Would you mind looking it up and posting the vertical and horizontal coordinates,
please . Thank you...
Mar 5, 2012
Dan
41.622488156416, -80.8663783538079
Mar 6, 2012
hunter4440
Dan.... thanks, found the location. Hope it is a good well. I have some property just to the west. Will be good for all of Ashtabula.
Mar 6, 2012
Dan
Hope your sitting on the mother load... Let us know when the rig gets in town.
Mar 6, 2012
Michael Kromer
Hunter4440..... This is Mike Kromer. Where is your property?
Mar 6, 2012
hunter4440
Dan... just west of state route 45 on Laskey Road.
Mar 9, 2012
hunter4440
Anything new on the Trumbull and Ashtabula offers?
Mar 21, 2012
Susan Johnson
I think it is interesting that no specifics from ALOV regarding the two counties but if you look on Ashtabula County's recorder's website, there are many, many Wishgard leases recorded between the Fall 2011 and March 16.
Mar 21, 2012