Can a company horizontal drill under my land without a lease?

As I continue to educate myself on this site, questions come to mind.  What is stopping a driller from a nearby site from drilling into my shale without a lease.  Also, how close can they frack near my property to "steal" gas and oil?

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2z248p19vqnh9Permalink Reply by 2z248p19vqnh9 on March 26, 2013 at 2:36pm

Hi, been awhile, m'friend. Wish I had that answer a bit ago, but all is still 'well' :). How's the water on YOUR end - clear, murky...? Seems quite clear to me. Yes, it HAS 'been awhile', but I am just 'contained' for the moment - within myself. Isn't it funny - when you 'talk to yourself', 'people' get funny ideas. MY family always made the joke - "Well, you've got to talk to somebody SENSIBLE sometime!". Good 'breather' for me. It's good to 'stand firm' (within oneself...) & regroup...THEN one can 'march on' with inner resolve & God granted fortitude.

Saw a 'troop' of HALIBURTON trucks - about a squadron of 7-8 of 'em today on my treck to the doc. Big, shiny (heavy as heck!!! - hope that PA will be getting their 'piece of gold' from their side for road break-up! -- good idea: **IF the G&O Co.'s are benefitting from using OUR roadways - PAY UP, 'pals'...good ole' AmeriCAN Co.'s & boys that they are). Anyway, all bright & CHERRY RED (cheery red?...) - and 'loaded with gold'. Probably the frack distributors of fluid & such...QUITE a convoy! And 'it's only JUST BEGUN!'...where there's one - there will be more (G&O 'TRUCKS' that is...). 

As I also saw the fields beginning to be 'turned over'...I can't help but think of all of the SOIL IMPACTION that will be taking place in the spring 'turbulence' as the soil will be PERMANENTLY DAMAGED by the ground being 'skrewed with'...AGAIN - MESSED WITH by the 'responsible' G&O 'buddies'. With 'friends like this' - WHO 'needs enemies'? To thine own self be true - to thine OWN SELF, be TRUE. HE WHO STANDS FIRM.

QUESTION: you don't think that 'those guys' think about (OR 'care about') SOIL(D) COMPACTION & the FUTURE disruption -or- do they care about the bats? (only because they have to...) -OR- does it all just come down to 'SHOW ME THE MONEY $$$$' - CA-CHING!!!' thought? HMMM.... I'd pick - show me the money (they KNOW what they're after...all pirates do! Argh!!!). Yep - FOLLOW the $$$, boys & girls....

 Yes, have had a nice 'reprise' in gaining thought...but I'll keep things on a 'short string' for this moment...

As one light lights another, nor grows less - so nobleness enkindles nobleness. HEY, FOLKS / LANDOWNERS...YOU have rights - it's YOUR LAND...this IS America (last I heard...). BE WISE! ***THINK - no one else is going to 'think for you', never forget that. Remember - it's still YOUR LAND. QUESTION: HOW MANY years have you OWNED it, WORKED it, PAID TAXES on it...? THINK that one over.

BELIEVE (in yoiurself!!!). Cheers!

Permalink Reply by Frank Walker on March 21, 2013 at 10:39pm

It's always so much more difficult to answer questions of this nature, and they are excellent questions, when the person posting the questions refuses to reveal his or her state.  I assume this happens out of a desire for privacy but, really . . . I mean, give us a break!

Anyway, these issues have been well ventilated on this forum, but perhaps not recently.  I can recall a while back being keelhauled by a more knowledgeable poster here, from Louisiana, when I pointed to Garza inappropriately.  But still, all this stuff has been litigated most thoroughly in TX, not here in the east.

Suffice it to say they will not drill your property without leasing it.  The bigs won't, anyway.  They have too much sense.  The little fish?  Almost surely they will not drill you either without a lease.  But there's always an off chance some rogue, small-time, idiot decides to take a flyer.  Still, it's really unlikely.

The far more interesting question involves frack trespass.  There are so many unknowns.  Frack outreach, or radius, varies with the local shale.  Even smart gascos don't always know precisely how far outward from the bore a frack job is going to extend.  In addition, there are local shale dependent fissures and fractures.  If a neighboring frack job does not reach out to your shale, but instead reaches only naturally-occurring fissures and fractures which extend (again, naturally) into your shale, there can be some drainage.  How much?  Not much, just free gas.  To pull a number out of my posterior, I'd guesstimate no more than 5%.  I don't really know.  Thing is, any drainage of that nature is completely legal and, frankly, cannot be helped.

It was several years ago.  But I can tell you my personal experience.  When they commenced operations adjacent to my property I busted my butt to sign a lease, and I did sign just in time.  I had no thoughts whatsoever that they would drill me.  There was zero chance of that (except possibly by error).  But I have never been positioned to take a frack trespass case to court.  And I didn't want to risk even minor drainage owing to naturally occurring fissures and fractures.  So I knew the jig was up and I leased.  Had they not actually been drilling, it's much more likely I would not have leased.  I now know, had I not leased, it would have been a mistake.  

Permalink Reply by New Field Farm on March 22, 2013 at 12:24am

Frank,

I appreciate your response and the state is PA, somehow in the dark and late hours I left that vital piece of information out.  

Permalink Reply by Frank Walker on March 22, 2013 at 4:04am

Well I'm in PA, too.  I was thinking maybe you might be in OH, about which I know little nothing. Here in PA frac trespass, to my best knowledge, remains unlitigated even today.  As you must be aware, in PA things of this nature move very, very slowly.  We don't even have a decision (from the Supremes) yet on Dunham for goodness sake!!  

I would never counsel anyone to take on the gascos regarding frac trespass.  The litigation could turn out, indeed, to be punishing, expensive, even murderous.  It could take five or ten years fully to litigate frac trespass.  Most people would rather live their lives instead.  Those not wishing to lease, as a practical matter, will have to (IMHO) live with whatever happens.

PA has drilling depth dependent setbacks and, of course, our famous "Rule of Capture".  Just a tiny bit of color on the latter:

Our Rule of Capture originally was conceived for water wells.  "Back in the day", water well production enhancement was accomplished, from time to time, through use of dynamite!  But dynamite, speaking in a general sense, is a "stimulant" to the production of (what was back at that time) water.  Fast forward to today:

Today the gascos drill wells, which they stimulate . . not with dynamite, but via violent, high pressure, hydraulic fracturing.  The effect of this stimulation is sufficiently violent to crack the shale.  So now, were I a lawyer (I'm not) arguing this in court vs. the poor-but-honest unleased landowner fighting frac trespass, I'd point to the historical justification for stimulation.  Because you see, back in the old days, when more of my water flowed to your well because of your liberal use of dynamite, that water still belonged to YOU . . not me.  The dynamite made no difference and our PA Rule of Capture still applied 100%.  And there you have, I'm afraid, the makings of a legal precedent.

So now you know more about why I busted my tail to lease when they were drilling next door. Here in PA the Rule of Capture is law.  We Pennsylvanians have to deal with it.  Here in PA, there's a good possibility "frac trespass", even after years of litigation should that ensue, will turn out not to be trespass at all!!

2z248p19vqnh9Permalink Reply by 2z248p19vqnh9 on March 26, 2013 at 3:34pm

Frank, let me be 'frank'...WELL - it's spring...and always a good time for a 'change'...CHANGE is GOOD.

There's the support line of 'what has changed / what has stayed the same'. We NOW have a good BIT of knowledge - concerning 'land matters' than was 'back in the day'. I should say (I should HOPE!). IF not...then we should GET WITH IT! Deal with it?...what a woosey, goof-ball, mamby-pamby...'Welp, guess that's just 'the way it is'! h'yuck, h'yuck...aw, shucks!!

Guess I'd better turn tail & crawl back into the hole I came out of & just 'TAKE IT LIKE A MAN'...WHAT 'MAN/MAN' would THOSE be?...THAT IS the 'big boys' HOPES!!!

NEVER GIVE UP - NEVER GIVE UP - NEVER GIVE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ***NEVER!!!

-------------WHO are you? WHAT are you? It is time for CHANGE - CHANGE IS GOOD! - ESPECIALLY when it 'makes SENSE! Stand up like a man & be strong!

----------------------

So, Frank - YOU'RE 'not a lawyer'...but ARE you are 'G&O dude'? / have connections to/with the G&O field?...i.e. - get a PAYCHECK for 'work' by/through the G&O Co.'s?

HERE'S a real 'doozie' of a Q for you...you have property, right?...HOW would you deal with firecrackers being set off by the neighbor kids each & every night at around 3-4 in the morning?...how about those same kids maybe growing up & drilling a H2O WELL within 1-3' of YOUR property line for water...or GAS...or OIL...? Guess it doesn't matter - that GOOD OLD (make sense?) RULE concerning the 'LAW of CAPTURE' applies - so you'd better just turn around & go 'back in your house' & draw the blinds. WHY?...because YOU are a LOSER! A 'fool & his money (*water, *gas, *oil *+)' are soon parted...CASE CLOSED!

*HUH!!! WHY didn't I 'think' of that? - what a way to go. Rah, Rah, Rah...let's go Frankie. Boy - I want you on MY team (good thing I don't own the Steeler's!). WAY to GO!!! - Walk on, little 'tail between your legs' Frankie....I want YOU on MY TEAM! (YIKES! - isn't THAT called 'giving up before you even TRY?'...other's thoughts...).

----------------------------------------

As one light lights another, nor grows less - so nobleness enkindles nobleness. Kabuki

(life is but a dance...and a dream, B'ding, B'ding.)

2z248p19vqnh9Permalink Reply by 2z248p19vqnh9 on March 26, 2013 at 3:59pm

I JUST had this 'go off' in my head when I was re-reading your 'explanation' of WHY/HOW things are 'sl--ow...' in Pa., F. Walker. ***Gotta' say - that's mighty STRANGE soundin'...when one THINKS about it. - THINK about it! *THINK*

Right is Right - Wrong is Wrong. 'A' is 'A', 'B' is B'...not 'BS' (or so it SHOULDN'T 'B'!). ***Let your 'yes be yes' & your 'no be no'. *It's THAT straightforward SIMPLE. (IF NOT - it SHOULD'B'!). *THINK about that.... Phil. 4:8 - sound advice.

Pa. - the strictest vehicle inspection around! OHio...nOT!

Pa. - medical field - TOUGH regulations!...basically IF you are 'passed' as a nurse or doctor in ANY field - you can go ANYWHERE in the country & 'practice'! Pa. individuals are 'WANTED' persons!

...so WHY should people in PA. be 'behind the eightball' concerning THESE 'G&O' matters? Now THAT is one HUGE THOUGHT worth pondering, STRONGLY considering, and ADDRESSING!! Here ye, HEAR YE (DO 'come here'...my dear!) - if it please the court - the matter of the LAW of 'The Rule of Capture' needs be addressed ASAP! Let's let Punxsutawney Pete - or Phil- or WHATEVER that rascal's name is...be the 'deciding factor' - with a FLIP of his TAiL! Hiddy-Ho!...and away we go! Morbid.

----------------------------

CHANGE is GOOD! (people get divorced ALL the time nowadays, eh?...SEE? - THEY y'think' that CHANGE is 'good'...but in THIS CASE - it IS! Court adjourned.

YES - as one light LIGHTS ANOTHER (nor grows 'less')...so nobleness ENKINDLES --- (guess what? - that's RIGHT!) NOBLENESS!!! Hat's off to all.

*Again, Phil. 4:8...and no, NOT 'Punxsutawney whoozi-whatzi! - Phil. 4:8...

Permalink Reply by Dave on March 22, 2013 at 2:39am

I saw this post and had to reply,  I look at the maps of the production units in Bradford county posted by Wayne Miller and see the holes in the units where people didn't lease.  I still can't figure out how they can go around some of these properties not leased.  I think it is foolish not to lease when the majority of the surrounding land is drilled. People not leasing have to deal with the same extra traffic leased people do and get no compensation.  Not leasing your land actually devalues your property unless you have hundreds of acres.  Once they frack a well they won't be back for a long time..  I think some people are under the misconception their property is worth more without a lease.  I would never buy a property that is a  donut hole.

I thought long and hard before leasing my farm.  I originally made the investment of 87000 in 1996  because it was very remote and peaceful getaway.  The house was barely inhabitable.  I used the lease money to gut the house and remodel, build a nice garage and horse barn. Now that the wells are going in and the pipeline is there I have a chance at getting a income.  I don't think I made a poor decision.

Permalink Reply by Tyler H on March 24, 2013 at 4:40am

Hey Dave.  Could you post a link for the production units in Bradford County?  Or email me a link?

Permalink Reply by John Harrison on March 24, 2013 at 8:08am

Do a search on this site for "wayne miller" and you will get the information you need which consists of downloading the .KMZ file for Google Earth.  Google Earth must be installed on your computer which is for free from Google

Permalink Reply by Oliver Perry on March 24, 2013 at 8:34am
Permalink Reply by Studer on March 28, 2013 at 3:19am

Had to reply because this post is similar to my situation.  I have a mere 10 acres in Mahoning Co., OH and was approached to lease, which I did.  My feeling was, no matter whether I support drilling and fracking or not, if everyone around me has leased I am going to be subject to all of the same possibilities and traffic as everyone else, but with no compensation if I don't lease.  My property is within quarter of a mile of the well site.  I was told by by the M&D leasing agent that they did not need my parcel in the unit and that the drilling would happen with or without mine, but that it was in my best interest to lease because the horizontal drilling was going to take the product from under my land whether I was leased or not.  Bottom line, from his own lips, why not be compensated? 

 

I bought in 1998, for much of the same reasons and the house was also barely inhabitable, but extremely solidly built.  Unfortunately the extensive investment I made in improving it was out of my own pocket, but my signon money 14 yrs. later did give me a nice payback on my investment.  Unfortunately, the promised well has never been drilled, no pipeline and no one seems to have any news about what's to come, so I don't know if I'll ever see any 20% royalties.

Permalink Reply by Joseph-Ohio on March 28, 2013 at 3:25am

And therein we find the best argument for maximizing your sign on bonus.

Well done.

Good luck - we hope your well follows soon.

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