Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by 2z248p19vqnh9 on January 3, 2014 at 5:16pm

Mark McGrail - Yes, things HAVE changed greatly in our GREAT Country. Had a thought - since this area of the country has expansive hardwoods special to this region...How about *Northeastern AmerICAN HARDHEADS* - a tough group of AmerICANs who know, love, and value who they are & what they have. I agree that ONCE Americans 'are empowered with the truth (knowledge) they don't necessarily 'do the right thing', BUT ***once THEIR toes 'get stepped on'*** (or they have something to GAIN or LOSE) - THEN they get up the gumption & THEN they 'stomp back'. (Usually 'too late' &/or - it doesn't matter in THE END GAME anyway...). In truth, that is unfortunately how things REALLY are...stay resilient...at least you'll get some sort of bone thrown your way - just for barkin' loud enough...

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...concerning 'reassignment' of a land lease...I think that since THEY 'OWN' the land (tag-teamed through the lease that hobbles the LANDOWNER) - they STILL possess the way/things are done to/with their land. It isn't by ANY means like the song about this country - in 'this land is your land, this land is my land...from CA to the NY Island. "This Land Is Your Land" by Woody Guthrie   It is NOW basically in the hands of the G/O man...pray that it all goes 'well'....

...SO, WHAT could possibly be problematic with making sure that the landowner KNOWS what is going to be going ON with their land - because it IS 'under contract' now - there's nothing that will change that. Might be a good idea for this to get an action put forth for PEOPLE, for the LANDOWNER (mineral right partial 'owners')  of OUR COUNTRY - so THEY know who their 'silent partner' in...is?

HERE is just a snippet of some of the things that flit about in people's minds - because they DO care about THEIR LAND. Read through this GMS discussion a bit...Need Help with Pipeline Lease - Go Marcellus & Utica Shale: Lea....  - wanting to know WHAT is the best way to think things through. It's crazy. I'm not going to dig through & put up more discussions for now of people who try to get through this.... I know that YOU have 'been here' long enough to know what goes on. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall...

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You mention pollu-titions (politicians?) & you run in those circles..don't 'feel enslaved' - know that you ARE 'enslaved' - you DO 'make/generate' your money, BUT you must 'give to get' (it's the AmeriCON way, m'friend...and hate it like rat poison, you & I +++ do...BUT it's the 'system', the way that things 'are'). It just not right - period. We've become a country of 'what's your is mine...and waht's 'mine' *IS MINE, TOO!

You DO know about the Why'sKey Rebellion & how NASTY WRONG it went down - you probably have relatives - or relatives of relatives -OR FRIENDS of friends of relatives +++ that lived through that. THAT was skanky! THEY were 'AmerICANs', too. Sure, our country 'goes on' and it's DIRTY LAUNDRY gets 'swept under the rug' - as many people in various times and places have had done to THEM - and the BEAT goes on. Hut, two, three, four! - I don't know, but I been told...G/O men will...yadda', yadda'. yadda'...& walk on...to the next 'deal'. Over & under

- People get walked all over, bootprints all over the back of people's shirts EVERYWHERE. Sure, there's the 'handouts' that are what they are...but in a way - WE (thinkers?) are CONNED to 'give' (to get?). HOW? - We're 'conned' into 'believing' that WE are the 'right ones' and that we can do no wrong. That WE are educated - AND the 'wool' (or silk or cashmere...whatever) gets pulled over OUR eyes as WELL.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with maintaining the DRIVE (takes stamina, it does!) to TRY to do one's best to 'make it turn out' RIGHT...it IS an 'uphill' battle. ALL things worth fighting for (when one BELIEVES that they are fighting for a CAUSE that BENEFITS them...) - absolutely NOTHING wrong with that - it's HOW we came to be - this great America!

SEE, the reason that I am thinking it MAY be an equally important endeavor to pursue - something that requires the G/O Co.'s to clarify to a LANDOWNER when 'transfer' of a G/O lease is made - is that the LANDOWNERs around these here parts ARE like 'babes'. You're right - I concur - that IT SHOULD BE in the paperwork. We have both read/heard instances where people DO do their due diligence & have things checked out - by themselves & a lawyer...and this isn't 'in there'.

The G/O Co.'s treat us like WE treated the Native American Indians...chew us up, spit down our throat & tell us that we should be happy that they did. Yum, Yum, Yum - good dog. Heel, Sit. ...

NORTHEASTERN AmerICAN HARDHEADS*** light the way. As one light lights another, nor grows less - so nobleness enkindles nobleness. *Feels good 'writing' that out, doesn't it? - makes you think, really think: WHAT IS 'nobleness'?...how about NORTHAmerICAN SMARTHeads!

***Educate your people over there, Mark, so they don't end up getting 'EGG' on their face! PIE is sometimes much easier to handle, but NOT 'egg'! OH, invite them to an 'egg rolling' contest -OR- egg toss -OR- egg & spoon...tell them that IF they manage to get the egg through the whole 'BIT' - the egg - it's theirs to keep (then it can never be said that you never 'GAVE' them anything! IF they keep whining - throw in the whole chicken, kit & ka'boddle!

...just for fun: Egg-and-spoon race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - read the 'Prohibition' part...got their fingers in EVERYTHING! *CONTROL! *** CAN'T even use REAL EGGS anymore! HA!!!

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Concerning the G/O leases: seems to go to this: What's 'yours' is mine & what's MINE is mine too...too bad, you don't 'have it in the lease'...and then 'others' say, YEAH, but they're gettin' a sizable check!!! ***sometimes it ISN'T 'all about the money'...

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Permalink Reply by Paul Heckbert on January 21, 2014 at 4:05pm

Youngstown and Niles should ban fracking because its benefits are less than proponents are saying, and the dangers are too high (http://www.vindy.com/news/2014/jan/01/fracking-foes-mark-quake-anniversary-ren/?fracking#comments).

The gas industry stands to profit big time, so they promote a gold rush mentality: they'll rave about the jobs that will rejuvenate your town, and they'll make you salivate for your share of the profits.

They won't tell you that most of the jobs last only a few months, and then move on to another state. They won't mention that drilling crews bring crime (look at PA). All the pipelines and compressors the crews bring in can turn a quiet farming community into an ugly, noisy industrial zone. Roads get torn up by truck traffic. Impoundment ponds holding fracking fluids can leak, causing pollution of local streams, poisoning livestock and wild animals. So much for hunting and fishing! Real estate values can plummet. The royalties might be good at first, but they drop exponentially.

When wells are drilled by gas companies, whether for fracking or for injection (disposal), they punch through the aquifer on their way down. When done perfectly, the casing (metal pipe) and cement around the casing seal the hole to eliminate the possibility of contamination between strata. But the reality is that many wells leak from their first day, and after 30 years, half of them leak! That means that underground chemicals (whether fracking fluids, or underground toxic chemicals, or nontoxic but flammable methane) under pressure, can force their way upward into the aquifer and get into wellwater and into the drinking water supply. Given current technology, cases of contamination are inevitable.

Youngstown and Niles would be wise to ban fracking to protect their drinking water.

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Permalink Reply by David Mohn on January 21, 2014 at 8:56pm

Would you please be able to back up your claims with specific examples or facts.   Generalities don't get it anymore.  Facts, that's what you need to back your claims up with.  Oh that's right, you don't have any facts.  Sorry. 

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Permalink Reply by Mark McGrail on January 22, 2014 at 3:44am

Paul,

The dangers outweigh the benefits ? Toxic emissions have been reduced to 1997 levels. This is below the levels set in the Kyoto protocol and "Cap and Trade" legislation. This is due to the increased use of natural gas for electric power generation.

Along with emissions particulate matter. The EPA has shown the particulate matter 25 microns (PM25) and smaller are the cause of 75,000 deaths per year in the U.S. and 3.2 million world wide. These also have been reduced due to the use of natural gas.

The increased use of natural gas is due to it's increased availability and decreased cost. Both are due to the use of horizontal drilling and wait for it ...............................FRACING!

People such as yourself would have us continue to burn coal which would mean emissions would continue to increase along with PM25. This would mean more people would die each year. So I guess you support the increase of agonizing deaths from respiratory diseases.

So hydraulic fracturing is good for the environment and it saves lives.

Now let's deal with the myths you have repeated:

Jobs are temporary -  Just completely false. There have been thousands of permanent jobs created by shale development in Ohio. If you are one of those people working today because of this industry I'm sure you think the benefit is great. BTW Rigs don't move from state to state very often, it's just too expensive. I guess you would rather these people stay unemployed.

Crime increases - I assume you mean that the oil field workers are the cause for increased crime. This is an urban myth with no proof to back up the claim. But you know what is verifiable ? Increased vandalism caused by fractivists.

Industrializing rural areas - Partly true, but the activity is short lived. I guess you would also be against any construction projects in rural areas. This would mean no new roads, no new shools, no new hospitals, no new homes, no new commercial plazas etc.

Roads are ruined - Here in Ohio the oil and gas companies are required to enter into Road Use Maintenance Agreements (RUMA). Companies either pave roads prior to using them or rebuild them after use. This has resulted in better roads in areas of shale development.

Impoundment pond leaks - Please cite an incident, if you can cite an incident please show the permanent environmental damage. Here in Ohio the use of impoundment ponds has just been approved. In order to use such a pond the company must apply for and receive a permit. In order to have the application approved the company must prove that their construction will meet the engineering specs developed by the engineers at the ODNR. Then during construction the construction manager must prove to ODNR inspectors that the specs are being followed. Finally a review is conducted of the construction process, then and only then will a use permit be granted.  After that regular reviews and inspections are conducted during use. Violations result in heavy fines.

Real Estate Values Drop - Another urban myth. In fact the opposite is true. Property which generates oil and gas royalties sells for more than market value.

Royalties Decline over time - So what, this is found money. I would rather have some royalties than none at all.

Wells leak from first day - Completely false and there is no proof of that. In fact just the opposite is true. There have been several hundred wells drilled here in Ohio and not one leak.

 1/2 of all wells will leak within 30 years - This is an assumption based upon the study done by Professor Ingraffea. The study has been completely debunked and shown to be false due to faulty data and erroneous assumptions. The debunking was a result of peer review.

That is what they call a slam dunk !

  

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Permalink Reply by David Mohn on January 22, 2014 at 4:27am

Well said Mark.  I am so very tired of these people who  spew BS and have nothing to back it up.   I know here in America we are all entitled to freedom of speech and I will defend that right till the end, but somewhere somehow you have to be held accountable for what you spew.  With the amount of manure they spread, I would think they would be more afraid of that getting into the water system!   I know I sure don't want  to drink their cool aid. 

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Permalink Reply by Mark McGrail on January 22, 2014 at 4:44am

David,

This is not the first time someone has "spewed" misinformation about shale development. It's sad that we must respond to this nonsense over and over.

But respond we must. I know I will never convince anyone from the anti crowd that they are wrong. However,there are those who only read sites such as this and never participate. Many of them are looking for information. It is they that I hope to influence with the facts and the truth.

The anti crowd keeps posting their nonsense hoping we don't respond. Continuing to repeat the same lies over and over is an effect tactic. Remember Josef Goebbels (Hitler's minister of propaganda) ?  He said ( and I paraphrase) if you repeat a lie often enough and loud enough people will begin to accept it as the truth. Just look at the anti crowd, they are loud and repeat the same lies over and over.

So I take the time to refute them when I see them I just want the people who only read this site get the facts and the truth. 

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Permalink Reply by David Mohn on January 22, 2014 at 6:13am

Mark I totally agree.  I am just a landowner and back in 2010 when CHK wanted to lease my farm I knew nothing about the Utica  In fact, back then it was all about the Marcellus. I came to this site as a way to learn about shale drilling.  My knowledge about drilling and the oil and gas industry is only a tip of the ice burg but I have learned allot from this site.  Back then, there were articles in the Canton Repository about shale drilling and I would post many many blogs about how good this would be for the area.  I was chastised for leasing.  There would be post that the Utica was a here now gone tomorrow.  That all jobs would be given to out of state workers.  That any money that was to be made here in Ohio would all go out of state.  It is funny, I don't see those people that use to post neg. things about the shale industry.  They might have had to eat some crow over the past few years.  Yes, I know Stark County Ohio is very quite and we might not be in a good spot, but I still support the shale drilling and feel it is the best thing since the plow to hit Ohio.  OK I used someone else's quote there but I believe it. 

So I agree with you in the fact that everyone must counter the antis with facts and let them spew their BS all over.  In the end, it will be the ones with the facts that will win over more people. 

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Permalink Reply by Ohiosam on January 22, 2014 at 5:13am

If the people who proposed this bill really believe that producing petroleum products is so dangerous they should have included in the amendment a ban on all sales of natural gas, propane, fuel oil, and gasoline. By banning the production but not the use they expose themselves to being NIMBY hypocrites.

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