As the price of gasoline keeps going up why have we not done any thing about it? CNG BI-Fuel convertings

Hello I wish to start a discussion on BI-Fuel CNG converting of our vehicles.

I hope I put it in the right place.

My name is Bob Mann and I have been doing CNG conversions here in Boston MA on VW and Audi cars for many years.

I find it so hard to believe with so much Natural Gas under our feet you are not looking at this more closely for you own fleets.

The first thing that comes to peoples minds is the EPA says you cannot do this.  I say have you ever read this document in your own two hands?

I would like to be of some help to inform people of what really works on today’s trucks and cars.

Bob Mann

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Permalink Reply by Linda A on February 24, 2012 at 3:49am

great idea and post, but there is something driving the prices even Natural Gas cannot fix...

Prices/costs for everything going up - and they are but are only dealing with gas/oil discussions here - the REAL culprit is that our govt. continues to print more money which sends the value of the dollar into the trash, thus it takes more of our paper dollars to buy the necessities. 

We can adjust our limited resources to accommodate, but it will just be temporary as it will not stop until WE THE PEOPLE stop them from stealing our prosperity!   So, we MUST get involved in the political system - start locally - research the candidate, and get out and work for the GOOD guys!  Vote out 99% of those already in office, who continue to support the problem because THEY are becoming millionaires from their dirty deeds on Americans!  EPA/Federal Govt. and cronies do not want us to be prosperous and they will TAX our resources and or STOP production when they see others can become prosperous.

Remember, Iran and other countries are NO LONGER USING U.S. DOLLARS when selling oil BECAUSE the U.S. continues to print money making it virtually worthless on the world market - they have caught on to us.  OPEC has lost it's power the the Iranian Oil Bourse, and other Oil Bourse's are taking control.

THIS is our reason for going to war with Iran, and it was the SAME reason for going to war with Iraq!

However, the EAST is bypassing the U.S. Dollar so we are going to see some nasty things happen.  A false flag here in U.S. or in the East...

Permalink Reply by Bob Mann on February 24, 2012 at 5:28am

I feel some heat coming on that is good.

I will stay on the convertion end of the discussions for now. I am doing a CNG BI-Fuel 2006 VW Jetta 2.5L so will post complete install for all to view.

I will let the people see this so called ilegal install.  I say have you ever read this document in your own two hands? and let the chip lay were they may.

Bob Mann

 

Permalink Reply by familyman on February 24, 2012 at 6:13am

Awesome Bob,

Let me be clear to say that as long as you are doing EPA/ or CARB approved cng kits for the specifically approved vehicle that nothing is being done wrong, i am suggesting that people think they dont have to follow EPA/CARB approved systems rules. So, if we are going to educate the public, the easiest thing to do is to show the EPA approval Certificate or the CARB certificate, or the exemption that someone operates it under, that you are installing. As you recall, i wanted to buy your vehicle on Ebay, and you couldnt come up with it, that doesnt mean that it wasnt possible, or legal, i just asked you to show me proof of it being a legal system, ans also the expiration date of the cylinder. I liked it,it looked good. Now, as far as my business. i will only operate what is pretty clear to the industry, our lawyers, and the EPA and CARB that the systems must be approved because it is a modification of the systems. I would love to have support from companies like yours to change/loosen the standards and i am working on relaxing the standards. Does your system that you are installing come with an EPA or CARB certification or exemption for a 2006 VW Jettswith a 2.5L engine. If it does, i dont think this is an issue. But if it doesnt, on what basis are you declaring that this is a legal system in the USA.

If you are right, then prices of these systems could drop dramatically, and that would be good for the public, but if there is no documentation, how do you expect an inspector to recertify the fuel system at the end of thirty six months, thirtysix thousand miles, or after a collision? Just because i can physically do something doesnt mean the government allows it. Unfortunbately, i would bet that every system that we could install would be better air emissions for our country and definitely better for our pocketbook.  i wish the EPA would agree to something as simple as requiring periodic emission inspections, and as long as the results are better than preconversion, then let the vehicles stay on the road.

 

To help our conversation, i am going to ask the EPA to join us on this conversation, and i thinkj it would be great. There are so many cars that could benefit, and i think persons like yourself, a brilliant gentleman in Utah that we both know, and i should push for a change of legislation, and maybe some simple to read laws, not legaleze. I will email EPA today, or tomorrow and hopefully they will become part of the conversation

Permalink Reply by Bob Mann on February 24, 2012 at 10:02am

Please feel free to pick this apart As I say show me your paper work to back up your claim on my  illegal installs. I look forword for the EPA to step into it here. if they do it will be some canned respose. 

Frequently Misunderstood Questions about CNG

by Jim Younkin

(1) CNG vehicles are more dangerous than gasoline vehicles.

This is a false statement, natural gas is less volatile, and the CNG tanks are bullet proof and safety tested. The CNG vehicle safety record is second to none. Gasoline Vehicles are burning up all the time, if gasoline vehicles had just been invented, they would never make it to the road…

(2) CNG Vehicles always run cleaner than gasoline.

False. CNG can run cleaner than gasoline but it all depends on the tuning. Many “OEM” (original equipment manufacturer) CNG conversions may out started out running clean but all vehicles need tuning and retuning.

(3) A CNG Conversion that is EPA Certified will always be clean and safe.

False. An EPA Certification may start out clean but whether it is safe is up to the installer. A little known fact is that since most all of the older CNG Vehicles on the road today are EPA Certified, and as a CNG vehicle ages it develops leaks and runs dirtier, the EPA Certified vehicles on the road are the dirtiest and the most prone to leaks.

(4) The EPA has been the biggest help to the CNG Conversion Industry through its regulation and monitoring.

False. The EPA has actually been the biggest threat and burden on the CNG Conversion industry in the US. The linkage that ties a rebate to EPA Certification is illegal in my opinion, and favoritism at the very least. The installers overcharge about the same amount as the rebate. Fewer vehicles are converted and many would be converterters are scared away.

(5) The EPA can certify any CNG Conversion.

False. The EPA will only certify new vehicles; this is due to the fact that “Certification” testing is only valid within the “useful life” of a vehicle, 100,000 miles.

(6) EPA Certification never expires.

False. This is one of the biggest misconceptions in CNG Conversions. The Certification, like a vehicle “warranty” expires as the vehicle wears. Actually non EPA conversions since they are more readily tunable have shown to be cleaner as they age.

(7) All CNG Conversions must be EPA Certified.

False, this is the most vicious lie, the EPA will certify for a price a new vehicle but they have no time for or interest in the rest of the CNG Conversions as long as they are safe and clean.

(8) Converting a Vehicle to CNG is considered “tampering” and is illegal.

False. The EPA code defines “tampering” as causing a vehicle to run dirty or removing a pollution device from the vehicle. If a CNG Conversion runs clean it is as legal as any other car driving down the road.

(9) A CNG Conversion system you buy on the internet is a recipe for disaster.

False. It’s a sad fact that the United States is behind the rest of the world when it comes to CNG conversion components. There are many excellent CNG Conversion Kits and components available online, including here at AFC. We also offer training and technical support to help your conversion go smoothly.

 

Permalink Reply by familyman on February 24, 2012 at 10:29am

I am glad that you post Jim Younkins article, first off I like Jim, and i may agree with many of the statements. Its interesting that you failed to post Steve Tuber EPA response that is posted on Jims site about their concerns. Its interesting that you post this and at least by posting Point Number 7 you are addressing the claim that EPA Certification is mandated, but that is only a partial truth because EPA has deferred to CARB and depending on your state you must comply  with that, or there is the exemption too. And until you read the new rules that came out in April 2011, which were supposed to be relaxed, but in my humble opinion not adequately, however i still maintain tat we should include EPA and The California ARB as they are the authority, not Jim, not you and not me. I would absolutely disagree with a couple of points on Jims list, as i have a much stronger education in some of these areas, but i like what he has to say too, but its best to bring the authorities into this conversation, because i dont want confusing legaleze, even if i am very good at understanding it. I do believe that many of the non EPA non CARB kits are excellent, and perhaps the people installing them are wonderful, but as you so succinctly put it, the industry and EPAs states it has to be legal, i think Jims opinion that the EPA hasnt the time or interest to certify the rest of the conversions is not EPAs concern, but because it costs the manufacturers of these certified systems nearly $250,000 per year, make, model and engine type too exorbitant. I really wish the rules would lighten up, but it comes down to this, I am going to run my business as i have learned the rules, and so i only will sell EPA or CARB approved systems. Do what you want, but as long as you wish to continue this conversation, we should ask EPA and CARB their official position and enforcement position, cause if they say do it, i will expand my business a bunch more, but in the meantime, i will comply with what i understand the law to be. Neither you nor Jim are the law, nor do i believe that you carry a JD degree in the states that i operate, but good luck to you, but i care about the people on this website and i will site the industry, i will provide lists of certified vehicles i will provide copies of the laws as they have changed in April 2011 federally, and in Pa in late 2011, and as they are written in the state of New York

Permalink Reply by Bob Mann on February 25, 2012 at 2:02am

I must say I am a bit sorry for direction the post took.

It was a good lesson on how an idea can be railroaded. With over 400 views in a 24 HR span not bad.

We need someone to do the true math here but I will try.

Let’s look a the cost of gasoline today and round it off to $4.00 a GAL

Use a MPG on gasoline of 25 miles to the GAL so forever 25 miles it cost you in gasoline $4 bucks.

You drive 100 miles a day that is $16 dollars just in fuel times 6 day that is $96 dollars a week out of you take home pay. And a month that is $384 and the year is $4608 dollars out of your take home pay.

Now we look at the Natural Gas as a vehicle fuel I will use the best cases study because the price for gasoline could jump to $5 a GAL in 60 days.

With a Home/Business fueling station it can be as low as $.60 cents a GAL of CNG.

$.60 cents every 25 miles. So your fuel cost for the week on CNG is now $ 14.40 and a month is $ 57.60

For the year is $691.20 HUM.

That is a savings of $3916.80 in your take home pay or bottom line of your business per vehicle.

Fact more Natural Gas will be sold

More people will be employed on wells and support to that industry.

And Employment across the board in the USA will go up over night.

Bob Mann

Permalink Reply by familyman on February 25, 2012 at 6:13am

I totally agree with you Bob!!!! Natural gas is the savings for Americans, its the prosperity, its the job growth and its homegrown. We do feasibility studies nearly weekly, and its a no  brainer, it is the future. And i am proud of all the people in the industry paving the way, and though you mand i may look at the regulations differently, i definitely want the systems to be in every car, not just new cars and a short list of used cars, and the only way for that to happen is for the regulations to be modified, or the opinions and statements from the government to embrace the technology that can be used right now. I just left a promotion thirty minutes ago, and the people are excited.

If i can successfully lobby for the changes we need, there will be no doubt as to the direction of the costs of the fuel systems, but even what they are, people are saving tons of money, and the cars run better, and last alot longer.

I wish you the best for 2012.

Permalink Reply by Dan on February 25, 2012 at 8:37am

Thanks for the post, Bob.  I'm very interested in seeing the CNG conversions and fueling stations coming to eastern Ohio.  I hope you have more information to post.

Permalink Reply by familyman on February 25, 2012 at 10:37am

dan,

they are coming into eastern ohio. Our company does EPA certified and CARB certified conversions. We are thirty five miles in the Pa border. We also provide home fill stations, small fleet stations, large fleet stations and public gas stations. If you are ready for a quote please provide me with your email address.

We spoke with legislators last week and we were told that several incentives,probably for conversions and refilling units are going to be available by mid april. In our company, Karen helps customers know what incentives are available at the state and federal levels. In addition, i announced that anyone contacting us that are fellow members will receive the discount through the middle of next month, so if it is timed right, the consumer may qualify for company discounts, state incentives and possibly federal incentives. As Bob explained in our earlier debates, only EPA and/or CARB systems qualify for the government incentives. Obviously if you are in a state like New York that requires CARB systems, then only CARB approved systems get state rebates, in Pa we are fortunate that the laws relaxed somewhat and we can offer you EPA and CARB approved systems. We have government sites that we can send you to in order to explain the regulations. We will happily email you information for your needs.

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