One more study proving fracing is safe

No impact to water from Marcellus shale fracking. From Penn Energy:

http://www.pennenergy.com/index/petroleum/display/6873964372/articl...

For all the antis on this board: what do you have to say now? You are standing in quicksand.

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Permalink Reply by Jack Straw on May 31, 2012 at 3:01pm

RE: "Your ignorance of science shines through when you use terms like "true results."

This brings us to an important question regarding your qualifications to judge technical/scientific matters.

In so much as you seem to feel qualified to critically comment on technical and scientific studies, it would be useful to know exactly what your technical/scientific qualifications might be.

What is your education and in which scientific discipline(s)?

How many years (if any) have you been employed in that scientific discipline?

There are many pseudo-environmentalists who turn out to be pseudo-intellectuals, what can you do to convince us that you are not of that ilk?

 

JS

 

 

Permalink Reply by fotto on May 31, 2012 at 3:12pm

As someone who will be affected by hydrofracing in the near future, I have been actively following this forum for some time, and I continue to wonder why. Really thinking that the appeal is a bit like looking at a train wreck with a bunch of mental patients wondering across the wreckage. Quite frankly, I am getting sick and tired of the "pro-drilling nazis" here who pounce on ANY differing opinion to their agenda.

There's nothing worse than listening to self proclaimed drilling mail order PhD's who decide to "grace" everyone with their sophomoric barbs (you know who you are Jack Straw, Fang, Moe (is it really "MOE" LOL). It's like a little pack of wolves circling anyone who isn't ready to contribute their earthly belongings to their commune. GROW UP a bit huh?

As far as reading comprehension goes, the only people on this particular thread who have any semblance of it are Jeff D and Zack. The rest of the pack took a snippet of a report with no additional data published to support it and used it to their pro drilling nazi agenda, all the while being condescending, argumentative, rude, and no better than those they accuse of being "enviro nazis". Such hypocrisy.

Here's a suggestion for those that I refer to....maybe you should try to present yourselves in a more mature manner vs. some bumpkin who fancies themselves as sarcastic comedians. Perhaps you might take a few classes on topics such as reading comprehension, proper interaction with humans who don't share your beliefs, common courtesy...you know, things that normal grown-ups living in our current society try to strive towards? Or, you can of course continue to stay your current course of adolescent asses with the belief that "I'm 100% right. Anyone who disagrees is wrong and will be persecuted".

Permalink Reply by David Perotto on May 31, 2012 at 3:29pm

Fotto,

I agree that everyone deserves respect.

The people who are truly being persecuted are the hard working oil and gas employees who toil in their jobs, only to have some anti claim that drilling fouled my water. All without any basis whatsoever, to whit Dimock PA. Landowners in NY are also being persecuted by the anti crowd. Land ownership in NY is both surface and subsurface. Owning nearly 280 acres in the Marcellus & Utica, my rights have been stripped by false claims by environmentalists & state legislators. Since they have no credible proof, their words have caused a moratorium to continue. What about my hard earned dollars, invested in real property rights??

Permalink Reply by Jack Straw on May 31, 2012 at 3:48pm

RE: "As someone who will be affected by hydrofracing in the near future"

 

The good news is that you will not be affected by hydrofracing.

Hydrofracing of the Marcellus Shale and Utica takes place at many thousands of feet beneath the surface and as such many thousands of feet beneath potable aquifers.

The effects of hydrofracing are limited to the formations of interest and possibly (but unlikely) immediately adjacent formations.

I challenge anyone to prove the above statement wrong.

There are individuals and interests that would like to strike fear into the minds of people.

Do not lose a minute's sleep over a false Bogey-man.

 

JS

Permalink Reply by fotto on May 31, 2012 at 4:04pm

Jack, Yes I will indeed be affected and it is foolish to believe I will not. It may not in the sense you're thinking but in other ways. I have an engineering degree. can comprehend procedure and risks,am level headed about about this whole issue. BUT....there are more factors at play here than just contamination issues, which seem to take the headlines. Read my reply to David.

Permalink Reply by fotto on June 1, 2012 at 1:38am

LOL...see my very first post on this thread. And there you have it from "God Fang" himself, who knows all, sees all, and is clairvoyant to the extent of understanding an anonymous man's spirit!

As it appears that you have the amazing talent of "remote viewing", please educate us all on my true reason for posting here?

Permalink Reply by fotto on June 1, 2012 at 2:36am

I'm not "casting bait" to you Fang....you're the one calling me the leftist and subsequently making judgments on my character and intent. My commentary here is to shed more light on the "soft" impacts of this boom similar to what I will experience, and quite frankly I think I have adequately expressed my main concerns over environmental issues, which in my opinion are not "wacko" and unfounded, so that's not really on my mind for further discussion.

Permalink Reply by fotto on May 31, 2012 at 3:52pm

My beef with what's going on right now is NOT with the basic right of folks exercising their mineral rights. I am not "anti fracking' in the sense that I have some impending doom that will occur. I am concerned about surface spillage and casing issues and potential for impact to my water supply when the well goes in 800' from my house, not that I will get contaminated from 7000' below. Besides those concerns over what COULD happen, my real issue is with the current regulation of these well sites and what WILL happen. I am part of 9 houses located on 1/2 of a 1 mile road that is part of a 640 acre drilling unit. So where does Chesapeake plan to put the pad? Right in the highest concentration of housing (us) possible, while they have hundreds of acres of open farm field to locate it. We all have new $200K plus home built since 2000 and the closest one to the pad (who just moved into their new house 6 months ago) is only 400' away from intended well, and ironically the landowner who sold those people that land also took spud fee to allow the pad after selling them the land to build!

We have a few guys in Columbus at ODNR who are looking at permit apps and who are 100% disconnected from the impact of such on the residents affected by it. As long as it meets regs, it will be approved. So, I am very bitter about this and it's not from the aspect of not having my mineral rights and being part of the unit. It's the fact that I WILL experience decreased property values, POTENTIAL for water and air pollution, increased noise pollution etc. etc. As a result, I fully intend to litigate any damage I incur as a result of my "neighbor's' decisions and what I consider their neglect in adding any protection to their neighbors into lease agreements. With all the planned drilling here in Ohio, I see this situation happening time and time again.

With that said, I am empathetic to your situation as well. I agree that you should be able to develop your mineral resources. If and when you have a chance to do so, consider my situation and your neighbors when negotiating a lease. Don't screw them like we're being screwed. You can certainly affect that as part of your lease, while my adjoining land owners either 1) Didn't care, or 2) were not astute enough to consider consequences of their actions.

Permalink Reply by David Perotto on May 31, 2012 at 4:08pm

Fotto,

Your concerns seem legitimate. The landowner that sold the land and allowed drilling should have been more thoughtful and required a farther setback. You are correct, problems can occur above ground. The one really good outcome in NY is that the NYDEC will mandate closed loop systems. While I love the idea of making a chunk of change, I love my land more than the $$$. I personally believe I can have it both ways, with the right driller & the right lease.

Air pollution may not be too much of a problem. One of the new claims being made is of health concerns. My take on that is if there was legitimate problems, wouldnt all of these workers show some symptoms of sickness? Wells are very common and you dont hear any issues with these existing  wells getting residents sick. But that doesnt mean we should turn a blind eye to the potential.

Permalink Reply by Jack Straw on May 31, 2012 at 5:10pm

RE: “I am concerned about surface spillage and casing issues and potential for impact to my water supply when the well goes in 800' from my house, not that I will get contaminated from 7000' below.”

 

Congratulations, you seem to realize that the Anti-Fracers concerns are bogus; you have not drunk of that cool-aid.

And, you have focused on matters that are of more valid concern.

A lot of concern is over Frac Fluid; actually it is quite innocuous.

Where the concern should lie is in the return fluid with the produced formation water.

The Marcellus and the Utica were deposited in an ocean approximately 400 million years ago.

The formation water started out as the salt water of an ancient ocean.

In the intervening (many) years these waters (at high temperature and under great hydrostatic pressure) have had the opportunity to dissolve and incorporate various minerals into these connate waters – some current constituents are not so benign.

As you have rightly pointed out, there are two events that could adversely affect shallow aquifers:

a poor cement bond allowing the deeper salt water formations to be in communication with shallow aquifers.

a surface spill of frac return (formation water) in a manner that could affect shallow aquifers.

With respect to the dangers of a poor cement bond, regulations have resulted in an additional isolated string of casing that has resulted in greatly reduced risks of communication of deep formations to shallow aquifers. Were a poor cement job to occur, a "squeeze job' will correct that situation.

With respect to a surface spill of spent frac return. The return of spent frac fluid takes place over a limited period of time during the “clean up” of the well.

The opportunity of a leak at this point in time would be both unlikely and if it occurred could be quickly controlled and ameliorated.

The final disposition of the returned frac fluid is now highly regulated.

 

I cannot intelligently comment on the exact regulations in place in Ohio, my familiarity is more with regards to PA regulations; however, in matters of safety, I do believe that both States have attempted to quickly evolve regulations in a manner that limits risk. In PA, new regulations instituted earlier this year have increased set backs from an unconventional well locations to water wells to 1000 feet.  PA set backs from an unconventional well location to a domicile are now 500 feet.

 

RE: “It's the fact that I WILL experience decreased property values”

Frankly, you are an adult and have made adult decisions. You purchased a rural property; I assume, without sub-surface rights.  You purchased a rural property; I assume, adjacent to undeveloped property – all without full consideration as to what might someday result.

 

RE: “POTENTIAL for water and air pollution increased noise pollution” 

The potential for water pollution is likely so negligible as to be less thatn your chances of being struck by lightning, less than your family dying in an automobile accident. Life is not without risk, but some risks are too small to fixate upon.

With respect to air pollution, drilling operations will take place over a matter of a few months, as the owner of the subsurface and the holder of the lease exercise their legal property rights.

 

With respect to noise pollution, drilling operations will take place over a matter of months, as the owner of the subsurface and the holder of the lease exercise their legal property rights. That is unless there is a nearby Compressor Station.

 

RE: “I fully intend to litigate any damage I incur as a result of my "neighbor's' decisions.”

Actually, your situation is the result of your decision to purchase a property that was not entirely zoned as Residential. If you chose to litigate, I suspect that the only winners would be the respective Attorneys. And do not lose sight of the fact that the losing side pays for both sets of Lawyers.

 

I have sympathy for your situation,  I too have made assumptions with regards neighboring property – only to be sadly surprised/shocked.

 

You make your choices and took your chances - and life is not always fair.

 

All IMHO,

                   JS

Permalink Reply by fotto on June 1, 2012 at 2:05am

RE: "Frankly, you are an adult and have made adult decisions. You purchased a rural property; I assume, without sub-surface rights.  You purchased a rural property; I assume, adjacent to undeveloped property – all without full consideration as to what might someday result."

Yep, all that is correct and can't argue with that. When I purchased my 6 acres in 1996 vertical drilling was the craze here, and I protected myself from any new wells, pipelines etc as part of the purchase via deed restrictions. Who'd a thunk I was sitting on right smack dab on the Utica Shale and horizontal drilling was being perfected off in the distance. Shame on me. Wish I had Fang's knack at fortune telling.

RE: "With respect to air pollution, drilling operations will take place over a matter of a few months, as the owner of the subsurface and the holder of the lease exercise their legal property rights.

 

With respect to noise pollution, drilling operations will take place over a matter of months, as the owner of the subsurface and the holder of the lease exercise their legal property rights. That is unless there is a nearby Compressor Station."


With all due respect Jack, that's just a load. So you're saying that this will all be over within a few months? You're only referring to the first lateral and frac right? What about the other 5-7 laterals off the same pad? What about the number of re-fracks they'll do per lateral once production starts to wane? I see this as a 6 yr.+ process NOT a 3 month "irritant" And guess what, there's no water source here, so that means we get the water trucks.

Permalink Reply by Jack Straw on June 1, 2012 at 4:28am

RE: “where does Chesapeake plan to put the pad? Right in the highest concentration of housing (us) possible, while they have hundreds of acres of open farm field to locate it.”

 

If CHK have not yet commenced work on the pad, your group of residents might attempt to influence CHK’s intended location. If your group are able to control their emotions (I do appreciate that that would be difficult) and can marshal cogent arguments for why the well pad should be relocated to a less intrusive spot you might obtain some cooperation from CHK. You would want to present this as high up the CHK chain of command as possible. You might wish to handle this (as a group) through an Attorney; to avoid the strong emotions that otherwise might cloud a discussion.

 

There may be technical reasons why the drill pad was located where it currently is planned; but this may have been done on a map, without regards to residents such as yourselves. The pad site may have been chosen at a remote location, with no thought given to the impact that it might have on residents, Even with technical reasons for the current location, it is likely that CHK would still have flexibility in relocating the pad.

 

All the above simply a suggestion, perhaps a long shot; but, it just might be possible to improve on your current situation,

 

All IMHO,

                   JS

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