Senate Bill 445 needs our support! WE CAN GET OUR VOICES HEARD!

Are you a landowner who has paid the property taxes yearly, maintained the land, and supported the community in which the land lies only to find you own but a portion, or worse, none, of the sub-surface mineral rights?  Are the sub-surface reservations a 100 years old or more?  Do you consider this an outrage that heirs of an a party who owned YOUR land over 100 years ago can rob YOUR heirs and YOU of the full compensation due you for leasing your lands?  Do you know friends or neighbors who are in this unhappy situation?  I am sure you do as mineral rights reservations of 50-100% are frightfully common in Pennsylvania.

 

If so, please contact your senator asking them to support Senate Bill 445 that Senator Yaw of Bradford County is trying to get to the floor for a vote.  Please see his website where SB 445 is explained.  BTW, his is a terrific, information packed site, one of the best I have ever seen by a government official.  I urge you to explore it and to shoot him an email thanking him for his efforts on our behalf.

http://senatorgeneyaw.com/legislation.htm

 

In addition to supporting Senator Yaw we need to contact our respective state senators to ask that they support SB 445.  I have contacted my senator down here in Dauphin County and have emailed several landowners from my area asking them to do the same.  This is important for the state as well because much of the state forest and game lands have their mineral rights reserved by a family of lumber barons from a 100 years ago.  These heirs own mineral rights to 27,000 acres of Pa land.  A hundred years ago their forefathers stripped and raped the forests of its lumber and now they want to continue the practice beneath our feet!  Many land owners in Clinton Co. have zero sub-surface ownership rights and have O & G goons climbing all over their land without any compensation, or I might add PERMISSION, to the landowner who pays the property taxes and maintains that land!  Can you imagine how violated and helpless they must feel?

 

Here is a link where you can easily locate your State Senator:

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/findyourlegislator/i...

 

PLEASE, I URGE YOU TO INFORM AS MANY AS YOU CAN OF THIS BILL AND REQUEST THEY CONTACT THEIR RESPECTIVE STATE SENATORS.  WE CAN GET OUR VOICES HEARD!

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Laurel on December 3, 2011 at 8:24am

No one pays taxes on mineral rights in Pa.  The owner of the surface rights pays "the Man" in Pa another reason why the retention of mineral sub-surface rights beyond a limited period, but into perpetuity as is now the rule in Pa, is unfair to the true owner of the land!

Permalink Reply by Ireland on December 3, 2011 at 3:21pm

That is where you are wrong. I own close to 15,000 acres of mineral rights with no surface rights in Clearfield County, PA. Every year, twice a year I receive in the mail my taxes for these properties and if I don't pay them they sheriff sale them off.

 

Permalink Reply by Laurel on December 3, 2011 at 4:09pm

Hmm, is that a by-county provision, or is it statewide?  I have not heard of this, but appreciate the information.

Permalink Reply by Ireland on December 3, 2011 at 4:26pm

I have no idea, all I know is I own 12 different properties of just mineral rights in Clearfield County and they tax me on the mineral rights. I inhereted the properties and all my ancestors had to pay them too. So I'm not sure if its only Clearfield County or not, I don't live there I live in Lycoming County. I dont see how this bill could work since we are paying taxes on the land.

0l1a6laz7smpfPermalink Reply by 0l1a6laz7smpf on December 3, 2011 at 4:56pm

 

evidentally they pay taxes if the "OWN" the mineral rights not "LEASE" them.  I am learning from Ireland here...thanks Ireland.  What is interesting though...is a landowner that owns both the surface land and the mineral rights only pays taxes on the value of the land and buildings.

Gas/oil are not considered minerals is what the county courthouse told me and they told me to remember that when doing a mineral lease....Just FYI.

2s72s0k9mm8gdPermalink Reply by 2s72s0k9mm8gd on December 4, 2011 at 6:38am

In Pennsylvania the wording "mineral rights" does not include gas and oil. However there was a bill introduced a month or two ago to include gas and oil as minerals......haven't heard much more about it , maybe it died (lets hope)!

There is so much money involved with this deep gas scenario I am very suspicious about any new laws pertaining to it.

My situation is this: My property is in 3 separate , though contiguous , parcels. On one I own 100% . The other two I own surface only. The OGM's are owned by a local mining company. This company in the early part of the 1900's bought up a bunch of farms in this area in order to underground mine a 6 foot thick vein of coal they wanted. Some of what I own was part of this.

Their mine caved in due to it being too sandy . Not conducive to underground mining. This put a halt to there coal plans and they sold off some of these farms. My property was sold by them in 1927 and they retained Gas Oil And Mineral Rights. This was shrewd on their part to word it that way because if they had only specified Minerals I would be in "higher cotton" now as this results in my loss of over $70,000 in just signing bonus alone. It wasn't until Shell was doing my title searches that this was discovered. We always thought the mining co. owned only "coal rights". This company is a cement manufacturer that has changed hands numerous times since it's inception in 1871. The coal thing was a sideline to them at the time. Their mine never reached this property. The cave-in occurred 300 yards short of here.

Luckily for me Shell has leasing rights to all of this company's OGM's. So , at least , we are contiguous in that regard. Now this company has done NOTHING with these mineral rights for the last 84 years yet they are cashing in big time now. Situations like this are probably pretty common.

Would it be fair to say cases like this need remedied?

This law would probably benefit me BUT at what cost to so many others who would lose?

And how many trapdoors are in it to snare those of us who think it sounds great?

How long before we ALL get taxed on the minerals?

What we need is a Laymens Translation of the COMPLETE BILL LANGUAGE.

I would like to see the whole thing in context before saying ya or nay.

2s72s0k9mm8gdPermalink Reply by 2s72s0k9mm8gd on December 4, 2011 at 7:33am

I need to correct something: changing gas & oil to mineral status in PA pertains to a law suit that is in the works , not legislation. Sorry.

2s72s0k9mm8gdPermalink Reply by 2s72s0k9mm8gd on December 4, 2011 at 7:51am

In addition to my post I would like to add that I doubt this cement company has been paying any taxes on these OGM's . The reason I believe this is the fact that Shell has been discovering these titles accidentally while in the process of searching for other leases like mine. I would think the cement company would know exactly what it owns if they were being billed by the county for property taxes. This would be all documented were that the case.

My hunch is not all counties charge tax on OGM's.

Permalink Reply by Dan on April 14, 2012 at 3:38pm

If our elected had more brains they would allready be taxing both even if surface and subsurface are owned by the same.  Times are still tough and goverment is looking for revenue.  They aren't that dumb though, we will be taxed for both in the future.  Land values will go up, contrary to what chicken little says, and some farms will be sold to build subdivisions.  (probably without subsurface rights)

In regards to the the proposed bill, you should be carefull what you wish for.  What if all or a portion of your land is considered "vacant"?  Can I lay claim to that in 21 years and support a bill to back my claim?  I see tens of thousands of unused acres every day.  What if I trespass and steal a rock off of each acre in a thousand acre plot every month fo 21 years and bag them up and sell them.  Can I lay claim to it?  We could have a new generation of squatters.  Maybe the word squatter has allready been replaced with a new word? 

Permalink Reply by Little Cougar on December 3, 2011 at 8:37am

I think this is nuts...when we sold our surface land to the buyer, he was well aware that we were retaining the mineral rights and that we had a producing well on it which we agreed that he got the gas to heat his home instead of us taking the money for that gas...he was thrilled to death to get my granddaddy's farm...sounds to me like some damn politician needs to mind his own business...stay out of this...and the surface landowners are having sour grapes because they bought the land knowing they didn't have mineral rights and now that the  mineral rights might be worth something they are crying and are going to try and get them for nothing.  Damn I hate politicians on both sides of the aisle...I say to those who own the mineral rights we need to be heard and those who don't know but remember something about a long gone relative who owned land in these development areas, I think you better be doing some research...and find out if you might own the mineral rights before some damn politician gets his nose into something that isn't any of his business just to get another vote...start searching and find out what is rightfully yours!  As to the taxes...the surface land owners in PA are not paying taxes on those mineral rights...I am paying a big chunk of change for every cubic feet of gas I get a royalty.  So I say to those that say they are paying taxes in other states for mineral rights that are not being mined...which sounds a little crazy because how can they base a tax on something that is hypothetical ...then complain to your state politician to change that law.  And be happy once they start producing gas or oil, that you are getting big royalties and then pay your fair share of the tax...gosh I'm so sick of people looking for something to complain about.  Be happy that you poor neighbor who has been struggling to exist finally got a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Permalink Reply by Little Cougar on December 3, 2011 at 8:59am

One more thing...I suggest when you buy land you read what you are signing...and if it doesn't include the mineral rights then ask the seller to include them.  I'm sure that seller will be more than glad to raise the price of the land to include the mineral rights, maybe 15,000 or more per acre...now what do you think that will do to the price of property...give me a break please...

Permalink Reply by Billy Park Whyde on December 3, 2011 at 9:27am
To my knowledge it is just about impossible to get a loan based upon a value of land unless it is through a farm credit type of loan. I live in Ohio and have some average here and would love to build a home upon it. I lost the house due to fire in 1979. I could not insure the house high enough due to the land having value. Well to make it short I have equity galore but banks will not agree. They want to a $200,000 house on two acres.
I have a Clinton well on the property and can recall the WINDFALL PROFIT TAX!

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