They're baaaack
Northeast Ohio fracking ban backers to try again
December 28, 2013
Associated Press
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COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — Backers of a proposed ban on hydraulic fracturing in a northeast Ohio city say they're not giving up despite two defeats at the polls in 2013.
The proposed Community Bill of Rights in Youngstown lost in the May and November elections. The measure would have prohibited the high-pressure oil and gas drilling technique, also called fracking, inside city limits.
A spokeswoman says ban supporters in Youngstown and neighboring Niles are now gathering signatures for another ballot attempt in March 2014.
Spokeswoman and geologist Susie Beiersdorfer (BEERZ'-dohr-fuhr) said supporters believe they can win this time because public understanding of the issue is growing. She noted that voter support for the issue increased from spring to fall.
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Online:
Bill of Rights Committee: http://www.protectyoungstown.org
Ohio Oil and Gas Association: http://www.ooga.org
- See more at: http://www.morningjournalnews.com/page/content.detail/id/431662/Nor...
Views: 3346
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by gary smith on
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hahahaha.public understanding of p.c. politics is growing,because our wallets are shrinking. new York will be the state to watch for fireworks. people are getting fed up there.
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Permalink Reply by Mark McGrail on -
I have worked (twice), on the campaign in Youngstown, to spread the facts and the truth about shale development and hydraulic fracturing. We won both times just using the truth. If anything the public understanding is growing about the fraudulent claims that the anti shale people are spreading. They will lose again in Youngstown and now in Niles.
If you live in either city, or know anyone there, please tell them the truth.
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Permalink Reply by MJ on
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The Liberal Antifracker's will keep spreading the BS. People will believe it because we all have been being "dumbed down" for decades. Excuse me - I have to go burn off the excess methane building up in my water tank from my well. I don't worry about the Toxins, it keeps the varmints out of the house.
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Permalink Reply by Billy Park Whyde on
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Geez I use that gas to heat the house, easier than coal, lol.
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Permalink Reply by Trapper on
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If only we had a Federal Government that was Pro American!
Groups such as this would then be thoroughly investigated and shown to be the minions of foreign interests that they really are. How can that ever happen though when the very ones we are forced to trust to do the investigating are minions of the very same foreign interests?!
Sad state of affairs.....
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Permalink Reply by Trapper on
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Our Founders liked the idea of limited govt. and individual freedom as well.
I am glad you feel out from under the jack boot of big govt.! May I ask what country you live in and are they taking applications?
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Now wait a minute, folks. This IS America, last we all knew - correct? WHY do you go on & on & on about 'anti-F's'? You act like skittish colts with a burr under your blanket. WHAT are these 'A-F' people to you...do they really bother you that much?
Believe you-me, the 'Big Boys' have enough pull in this to carry themselves without your gettin' all hot under the collar over it. It's becoming redundant...guess that's just the way things are....
Think about it this way - IF there are problems with water caused by what has pretty newly been taking place...wouldn't you be happier that action that needed to be taken was? Matters have NOT gone there yet, but you don't know if at some point they will.
Money is Money - Cash IS 'king'...and if you've got it already - go enjoy an eggroll for Frank Dux, wherever he may be.
Magna Carta, Robyn Hood (Robyn Hode), US Constitution, Whiskey Rebellion, G-Washington, Lincoln (Green), Libertarian free-thought...FREE yourselves of this 'plague'. IF it is 'clean', & all 'according to Hoyle' as pushed out there...then WHAT do you have to worry about. Quite henpecking a dead horse, gents. Move on...quite sounding like women over this. Move on.
REMEMBER WHO ***YOU***ARE: YOU are Amer-ICANs! This IS the best country by far that you could possibly be in. Think hard about that. Weigh the cost of moving from where you are now - to *wherever...how much effort & $$$ THAT would take. You are a 'native' here...you have friends, you are 'dug in' / INVESTED.... Best thought: EMBRACE what you have, value it, be wise, don't let anyone sucker punch you...YOU ARE HERE!
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Once I considered WHERE/WHAT would I go/do IF I had to 'get outta' dodge' IF the country went through a real flip-flop. I USED to think Canada - where I fished * knew people like kin, would be a good place - then things changed. NEVER thought you'd need a passport to go in/get back from Canada! - EVER!...things ALWAYS change...you've just got to remain smart & pliable.
THEN, when I really thought about it - I realized: I'm in the AB-SO-LUTE-LY ***BEST*** place I (again, I say, *I*) could possibly be. Even if it gets bad - this is better than MANY other places.
Oh, I, like you - STILL consider many various possibilities, but when push comes to shove - WHAT really IS the 'best choice'?...to each their own...
...yes, yes - to each their own. I agree with many opinions stated here. I would suppose from a philosophical point of view - or a 'debate position'...one must be able to see both sides of the fence & allow for thoughts to surface (like gas OR water bubbles...ha, ha). It's just funny because this has grown to become a bit of a beaten 'dead horse'...be aware, but forget about it (yet don't).... Don't let it eat up your wise mind, thoughts, & ideas, that's all. Grand 2014 for all.
I, too, love our GREAT country & think it best to have a primarily 'hands off' position...but can allow myself to hear & be open to all thoughts posed - some will be good, others silly....
IF people could remember WHAT our country was built on, they'd think differently (take the Whiskey Rebellion, for example...things are NOT what they seem...hmmm...). Peace Pipe?
Yeah, right. Stay Pragmatic & you won't get the wool pulled over your eyes. *As one light lights another, nor grows less - so nobleness enkindles nobleness.
***Any Eggrolls for Frank?*** ha,ha,ha!!! - fair is fair...Dux Shui? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
ha,ha,ha,ha,ha-ha,ha,ha,ja,ha - Ja? - HA! Pessimistic Libertarian (no, no, no - PRAGMATIC L!)
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Permalink Reply by Mark McGrail on
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GG,
To answer your question "... do they really bother you that much?" The simple answer is yes.
They are dangerous; one of the factors that makes our country great is access to inexpensive energy. Right now that energy comes from fossil fuels such as natural gas. These wingnuts would cut us off from that source. All for no good reason.
Their claims of environmental apocalypse from shale development are nonsense. Unfortunately, there are enough uniformed people in this country who buy into the anti shale fear mongering. It's important to continue to spread the truth least we find ourselves heating our homes with cow dung and sitting by candles to read.
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I understand, I do. The 'romantic' (unREAListic individual...) will create in their mind a scenario OF 'heating their home with cow dung (or wood chips - another expendable energy source...all it takes is time...) and the candle bit....
Once heard a woman make a very wise saying, went something like this: "People are always saying how they miss 'the good old days', and are saying 'Oh, Give me 'the good old days'. NOT ME - NO thank you - THESE are 'the good old days' - give me my washer, my dryer, my dishwasher, +++."
That person was a pretty 'make sense' individual, I'd say.... I agree, one cannot rationalize with an individual(s) who just persist in NOT 'making sense'. BUT, Mark, it IS the classic scenario of 'leading a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink'. Look at what we have going on across our entire country - wacky, is it not?
Perhaps, what we are dealing with is an EXTREME period of 'stagnancy'. What do I mean? Philosophically, that because there isn't a 'loyal against' - like a MAJOR 'chess opponent (as Russia was the heavy with the 'cold war' during Reagan's time +++). Is this making any sense?
Let's take WWI or WWII - they was a reason to RALLY together against 'Godzilla'. People STILL thought about the 'simple matters on the 'home field', BUT were clearly more focused on what was going on as a whole in the World at large.... Today - people have 'time' to focus on 'matters on their home front' to build up a fret about.
Unitization. Simplification. ...many persons have not experienced a 'rationing' of any sort - it has ALL pretty well been for society here as a whole - a simple wave of the CC (magic $ wand), a swipe, and a signature (and in some cases now - NOT even that! hmmm...)...and ALLAH-KAZAM. Poof, Whiz-band - it appears in your home via the internet or a B/M (Brick/Mortar) store...ta-da! *Easy eggrolls!...compliments of Dux!
People ARE people - as are you & I. We ALL have different needs, goals, thoughts, desires, drives, hopes, fears...on & on & on. Really, watch 'The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao' sometime - quite interesting. The more things change - the more they stay the same?...
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I am in no way saying that an uneducated mindset in not dangerous in & of itself. THAT, too, is worth taking into consideration. There ARE some who have valid concerns & make sense...and then there are the 'band-wagon' wanna-be 'jump-on/tag-alongs'...who just want to 'be there' (another good movie - Peter Sellers = 'Being There').
It IS tough the entire go-round. Like I said, in a way it IS good that you & others express their opinions - one way or the other. BUT these are Godzilla's that are playing the field & *CALLING THE SHOTS* - SO, do YOU really think/believe that YOU really have anything, overall, to do with ANY of it - really? I know - this IS 'America' & I sincerely do believe that we are 'Amer-ICANs'...and that WE CAN create a 'disturbance in the force' because of the way this country still is at this point in time...BUT, that gobby-de-gook all being said - who are you, or I, or anyone else - one way or another? Nothing. It's that simple.
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WHAT do you know about 'The Whiskey Rebellion'? It was a steam rolling of people overall - at least the ones in the 'outer reaches' of the expansion of the country at the time (hmm...this frontier of the 'Pittsburgh' are +++. The 'por county fok'...who DID 'farm, had surplus grain that to keep it from a total loss (rotting) turned it into a resource that was enjoyable & marketable as well. Our government (GW, then...) wanted to TAX the 'excess' production EQUALLY with the Philly area (much like how today's TAXES go to keeping the Eastern roads groomed - $$$ from 'the western POOR side of the hills/state).
OK, taxed $.09 per gallon - whether produced in the East or West...and the 'debate' was if the 'west' should be taxed at the same rate. They didn't have a problem 'paying a tax', just that they thought it was too high for the producers on this side of the state...THEN when GW (who himself was a producer of 'liquer' from 'surplus grain' himself - in pretty good quantities...). There was 'Neville' of Neville Island...Whiskey Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...read about it for yourself. Quite interesting. GW basically claimed to be sending 'truce' party, while at the same time - sending REAL ARMED troops to put the thumb skrews to them! Cad - foul play! Strange - opens one's eyes in a new way to what was happening - what IS happening today, Mark.
What has changed, what has stayed the same? Only the 'players' of the chess board, the time period (which IS 'relevant' to those enlisted IN that time period/experience...), and WHAT the 'debate' is about.... Dead Horse. Moot Point.
***There MUST be something to all the dither...otherwise *WHY DO the G/O Co.'s go to the *VERY simple 'extreme' of 'providing WATER' (whether just bottled water, or in certain cases - more expensive 'extremes'...) for parties whose properties/houses/barns & animals, WELLS +++ - IF there was nothing to worry about?
Don't try to say - to be 'better safe than sorry' because you & I (and everyone reading & posting here - or wherever...) both know that they won't spill a PENNY unless they have to. Follow the money...because THAT (NOT 'people') is what REALLY 'makes the world' go round. - Whether propelled by air, Nat'l Gas, Electricity, Coal, Hydro, Solar - or what-have-you.
Sure, Sure - it's nice - they throw the dogs (you & I +) a couple of 'bones', pat us on the head, and say 'sit - good boy'...and go on to shoot the next great buck...or 'sitting duck (?)'.... Call it ANY way you want to (just to make you happy...). BOTTOM LINE" They get what they want & need whether you 'agree' or not - it only works if it SERBES their 'purpose'. The goose is very nearly cooked...just needs to turn a bit more on the spit & make sure that it can 'QUACK still', but NOT 'fly' (hit the ground rumning'...).
Time does tell. Yes, they're dangerous, if anything, mainly to themselves...BUT no one knows what ALL of our futures hold - read & REALLY understand that Whiskey Rebellion bit. I don't think there will be a G/O Rebellion, although you never know. People have 'breaking points' where they FINALLY decide that *enough is enough* & then there will be cracks in the dam. BUT the 'big boys' will take care of that too...they always take good care of themselves - with or without your, my, or any other persons helps OR 'hinderances'.... Capiche'? - just like with the 'A-F', it doesn't really matter one way or another. They've got us by the cahunga's, they do. Like you said - WHO in their right mind will give up their car for having to 'barn' a horse, feed it (farm to raise the crop to feed it!), muck out its stall, the buy a buggy, harness, blankets, ++++and then raise the pig to render the tallow from to make the soap & candles...on & on & on...REALLY?!
As one light lights another, nor grows less - so nobleness enkindles nobleness. Consider what I said - WHY do 'they G/O' 'PAY' for H2O if it ain't hurtin' someone, somewhere - so?...WHAT is to be said of THAT?...here's another - it doesn't 'bother you' UNTIL it IS you 'feeling the pain'. THAT is the 'Judeo-Christian ethic side of our country' that IS good...
Never loose the ability to be able to look at ALL sides of a coin, including it's edges...and then WHO is 'holding the coin' (as a carrot?) and who is 'hungary'...just a thought...again - Libertarian Pragmatist?...AmerICAN for sure. Labels are just that - labels...don't mean squat. 2014.... (?)...time will 'tell'. Doesn't really matter one way or the other...yet we still believe that it does...WELL - it DOES!
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Permalink Reply by Mark McGrail on
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GG,
I do look at all sides of the coin. On one side is the unregualted oil and gas companies; on the other the whacko environmentalists. There is a place in the middle where the shale is developed responsibly. The issue is getting the two sides of the coin to the middle.
That is where we, the sane, general public come in. We all must be involved in order to bring each extreme to the middle. It appears to be an overwhelming task, and many post here that it is to large an undertaking. I agree that it is a difficult prospect but not impossible. If we all demand responsibility from the E&P companies and we all spread the truth in order to defeat the anti shale folks we will end up in the middle.
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Mark...really? Do you really, REALLY believe that? look at what you stated concerning 'both sides of the coin:
"One one side is the unregulated oil and gas companies; on the other the whacko environmentalists."
Your next portion of your first paragraph is true - there IS a 'sane, shale MIDDLE ground'...but, will we ever get close?...I agree with your position. Knowledge/Awareness IS the only way for those who don't comprehend to understand; and YET, there IS the definite possibility that there ARE 'problems underfoot' that have conveniently been 'brushed aside' perhaps to EVERYONE'S future detriment. Don't cast stones, because we really DON'T know. (think about it: 'we' really - REALLY only 'know' what we have been 'spoon fed' - what we are willing to swallow...what 'fits' our 'agenda'...can you not even possibly *without bias say that this is so?).
DO YOU have personal experience living with a Vertical or Horizontal wells (FRACKING well, where water is being hauled in & removed by big trucks?+++) - or just the shallow 'easy does it' wells that are just drilled & pumped? DO YOU live right next to one of those goliath's? - I'm not talking a couple miles down the road even - but RIGHT THERE? Have you ever bothered to knock on a door yourself of a 'well neighbor' - someone who LIVES right next to one of those afore mentioned & inquired what they deal with? What changes they have personally experienced? How about going one step further & seen if you could 'LIVE' with them for a week to see what YOU experience (or a month for that matter...).
I know - you reply - have you? No, Absolutely not. I have no interest to do so, BUT I don't denigrate them for what they may (or MAY NOT) indeed be experiencing. I DON'T want to 'walk a mile' in their shoes. They MAY have valid points needing restitution.
ARE you somehow saying that the G/O Co.'s don't make more than enough off of leased 'caged' landowners - or neighbors who 'share the water' too - that the G/O Co. is 'in the right'? *ARE THEY? - or have they conveniently pulled the wool over your eyes to just agree that the 'A-F' are the loonies (while they have you conned into believing that YOU are right & that they can do no wrong???). Are you THAT sure of your footing? Are you?
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Let's go back to the Whiskey Rebellion time. Everyone was right, no one was wrong (except the 'Western Loonies' in & past Pittsburgh/Washington, Pa. area...).... George Washington himself did one thing & said another...HOW does that get justified? - DO you think that things have 'changed so much'...do YOU honestly believe that the G/O Co.'s tell you the truth & nothing but the truth?...I ask again - then WHY...
...WHY do 'they' - the G/O Co.'s even supply *ONE drop or bottle of 'CLEAN WATER' - or replace pumps or water holding tanks...or ANYTHING - to ANYONE??? - they definitely don't have to - but THEY DO. ***WHY? ...oh, I know - it's because they're SUCH 'nice people' & 'they care'...and - WHAT? GoON! - They DON'T care, they're just trying to COVER THEMSELVES - and then 'for show' - get people like you to beLIEve them that 'they care', that 'thye are really concerned'.
I just have a really, really hard time believing that - and frankly can't believe that you do. Bottom Line: There is NO 'middle ground' - there's 'your ground' that is REALLY 'their ground' in THEIR MIND (G/O Co.)...
...if that isn't so...then WHY are there SO many postings by *landOWN(?)ing*, TAXpaying individuals - about their *frustrations* & FEARS in TRYING to get them/ G/O Co.'s to 'RIGHT WRONGS' - AFTER (after, after, after...) the fact (PROBLEMS...). Doesn't matter if it's a sm./med. operator -OR- a Gorilla...it's all the same...
What's yours is theirs & what's theirs is theirs too...no middle ground. (Try asking the lobbyists...). Money matters matter & WE are merely 'players'....
As one light lights another, nor grows less - so nobleness enkindles nobleness.
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Mark - for clarity, I, too, want for things to make sense; but it just isn't 'fair'. There truly ain't NOTHING in 'life' that is 'fair'. You breath, you are an Amer-ICAN (that's pretty good in & of itself), you DO have at least 'the illusion' of being able to 'have an opinion' & that 'it actually counts'.... One day in the future you MAY have a change of heart - concerning how WATER is being handled...and then it might be too late. HAVE YOU personally gone to people's places to TASTE their water (from their tap?) yourself?...then - gone to their neighbors to see if you can compare & take vials of water YOURSELF to have tested & see?...Again, nor have I - THAT is why I don't over-condemn them. I PERSONALLY don't know - and I'm NOT going to take 'professional opinion' SAY-SO that things are good...because THEY can be 'bought' or switched water supplied or some goofy thing that YOU can;t know for yourself (because facts are - YOU weren't there.). SO, in this case, I AM a 'doubting Thomas'...because HOW do you know? I don't really think that we do - we are being 'fed' convenient ??? - possibly, DON'T rule it out....That's all.
I, too, want to believe with all that I hold inside of a GOOD America - an HONEST America...but when you see too much, that viewpoint can waiver...
▶ James Burke, The Day The Universe Changed: 1 "The Way We Are" - Y...
NEVER stop asking questions, Never - there are always answers, some better (and more convenient) than others...and don't throw out the baby with the bathwater...don't believe everything that you hear & half of what you see...and you'll be ok. BELIEVE. It is allright to have faith, trust, hope...but don't become a fool. A fool is born every minute (look at me - ha, ha!).... Go ahead, take that ball & run with it if it makes you feel better (that is to anyone that I say this...), BUT don't become your own fool. Never forget that YOU don't know everything & that all information is good information (that DOESN'T mean that you have to 'agree' with it...).
Between the A-F' & the politicians & us(?) - yes, US!) - the *G/O Co.'s don't have a thing to worry about - they just keep on keepin' on...pump the gas, write the checks, pump & write, pump & write...to THEIR delight - sjyrockets in flight 2014 delight...G/O Co.'s delight! - while 'WE' fight, scratch, bite, kick, hit, bleed - as long as we don't in any way UNITE.... Hmmm....
Two sides of the coin & the in between...it will be a good year, one way or another. Your 'Middle' sounds good, just hope it all holds true. What else can one do?...
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Fang - I does know & understand. Oh, yes, I's does...Oh, I does know, I know...I do - as do you. Jimmy Cricky, Alladin's lamp, Magic carpet ride...it IS the WILL to believe. I believe as do you. - hey, since we're at this - let's not forget the Emerald City, when 'the Great Oz' is FINALLY able to be seen BEHIND the curtain ...THAT is 'life' - the 'curtain' (what one chooses -or is led- to believe *with the curtain closed vs. the curtain being OPENED & 'getting to SEE the 'REAL OZ' for *what he/it IS!)...
BUT I have learned through time's trials & errors that it's 'school' IS built out of *HARD KNOCKS -and- that the OLD saying to 'Believe half of what you see & nothing that you hear...' is more true than not.
Chicken Little DOES get broadsided..one more occasions than not. Let's be absolutely clear here - I AM on the same page as you all here. I too am of like mind that we can & do choose to do our best daily - and that the sun WILL come out - tomorrow,,,click, click go those 'ruby slippers' (or for a gent' - Lincoln Green caps...bows & arrows...)
DO 'reach for the stars' - there ARE many that come to various discussions on this site TO get incite - some do & that is good.
I am more directly writing to this particular 'go round'...concerning A-F. I would suppose that my point would be better differentiated by separating the 'realist/due to experience in LIFE' concerned landowners (cast as 'A-F' because of the situations they choose to vocalize from experience).
THEN there are the 'groupies', the 'A-F' hangers-on...they are the ones that can be the most dangerous - because they are just 'cause followers' - the 'go with the flowers' & they ARE possibly the most dangerous...
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Bottom line - and this I tried to convey as WELL...is that I really don't think it makes a hill of beans difference - either way. Because whatever the powers that be decide WILL happen - one way or another whether, be it tomorrow or a month or a year from now...and LIKE your bringing up JC & the stars...it really , really ***makes NO difference WHO (or WHERE) you are....that's all...
...and with that said - all the best. As one light lights another, nor grows less - so nobleness enkindles nobleness. It wouldn't matter what gets 'said' by whom or when it gets said. For THEY will see that their agenda gets through - no matter what...even if takes a little longer than was originally 'planned' - it WILL happen. Whether YOU agree, disagree, or A-F agree or disagree...it's all a 'wait & see' game ultimately...where are those stars when you need them?
All will be as it will be - wishes or not...I'll keep dreamin' if you do too...by Jiminy, I will!! Really though, all A-F & gas sidelines aside - glad that it's 2014. I, too, hope that it all is smooth sailing for all. JC! Never give up. (a wish & a prayer!)
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