Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by 0l1a6laz7smpf on March 31, 2012 at 3:23pm

Thomas,

If a company will start out by leasing in 'scam' ways and giving instructions to land agents to deceive the elderly and ignorant....then why think they wouldn't scam in other areas as well?  evidentally you need to read more about how some of these land agents took advantage of many a landowner in many states of our Northeast..  I implore you to take the time to read this info:

http://gomarcellusshale.com/forum/topics/extension-of-term-clause

I applaud anyone who will step up to the plate whether qualified or not to bring into focus a "scam art" that the oil companies are doing towards the innocent and the ignorant of our USA citizens and even non - citizens, since we are now a country that embraces non-citizens owning property as well as citizens for many of our oil/gas leases are now owned by foreigners from other countries.

A Lack of Understanding Disguised as Expertise...is in the article you posted.   Yet the oil companies have been  looking for those with a lack of understanding  to enter into lease agreements so they should be embracing those they find that aren't experts for they surely love it when they find one lacking in understanding to sign a lease agreement!

they even write their manuals looking for the ignorant or lack of understanding...

read the info at these links for  a person found a land agent training manual and it was printed about in news articles but needs to be found out by the state and local representatives who should be overseeing these things rather than letting the oil companies have their way...

http://archive.org/stream/TalkingPointsForSellingOilAndGasLeaseRigh...

http://ysnews.com/news/2011/04/file-implicates-gas-industry

that's right...they seeked to send tricks and make them look like treats to the ignorant.

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Permalink Reply by Thomas J Shepstone on March 31, 2012 at 11:47pm

Landmen can go off the reservation, but to suggest this translates into some gigantic scam is pretty ludicrous, if you ask me.

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Permalink Reply by Kathleen on April 1, 2012 at 1:21am

Why is it allowed for the landman to be able to say "if you don't sign, fine we are just going to drill under and take it anyway and you wont get anything" Every time I read they said that to someone I think, report this to the State, odnr, somewhere.
This tactic seems to work but from what I've read it's not true so how can they just say it? I'm to the point of telling anyone that knows a landman is coming out to get a recorder and record them. One showed up at my neighbors and told him how much royalties he would make in a month if he signed. Really, I wonder if he also has the numbers for the lottery. My neighbor grabbed onto that and kept saying but he promised me $$ and I could use that each month. Ugh!

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Permalink Reply by Thomas J Shepstone on April 1, 2012 at 3:27am

I always hear these stories about landmen making such statements but that wasn't my experience at all. No doubt it happens but not nearly as much as reported, I suspect.  I did have an experience in negotiating for a group, where a landman made some irresponsible comments that undermined what we were already negotiating with the company but it stopped as soon as I reported it.  Moreover, the statement you attribute to one landman simply goes against the law and every landowner has a responsibility to educate himself or herself so as not to fall for such nonsense.  Only a fool would take the used-car salesman comments as gospel without checking for themselves. 

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Permalink Reply by 0l1a6laz7smpf on April 1, 2012 at 11:12am

I don't think a lot of the old timers in the rural areas of the NE mountains of Pa....was to be their 'fool'...I know that we I visited most of the areas there the people stop and wave at their neighbor and invite them in to chat..   So when those innocent landowners met with citywise/profit oriented land agents who may or may not have been trained by that manual posted at this link...showed up on their doorsteps and made many a promise or a threat if it wasn't a one time close, ...I don't think those of the land of their father and his father thought they would be treated as 'fools', but they were foolish to trust those fools, as GOD as our witness later in their lives as to who really was the fool.

http://archive.org/stream/TalkingPointsForSellingOilAndGasLeaseRigh...

When I read this I thought gee, it was as if they went by the book ....cause those items certainly were handled that way with my dad.   I am not sure you have read the info at the link..here is an exerpt from the Talking Points:   (tell me do you think a gas/oil lease is a one time close?)

Even if they disagree on a selling point, they are unlikely to confront you over it. Therefore it is critical to obtain a lease signature in the first meeting, or at least the agreement to sign and take the lease to a notary. Drive them to the notary if you have to. If they have time to think it over, they are more likely to decline the offer. 

Most landowners will be patriotic Americans, and will desire to free our nation from foreign oil dependence. Make certain you lead with this selling point. CHINA bought more oil than the United States last year . Fear of foreign encroachment is the biggest asset we have in selling our development strategy.

Did you know that China has bought up many a gas/oil lease from Chesapeake and other oil companies that signed the gas/oil leases with the landowners since 2007? so how does that take China out of the picture?

and ha ha to us landowners...look at this one..

Lease Term - This is another area of concern that you can alleviate with the right wording. The lease  is for 5 years. Sometimes landowners will read the lease before signing and realize that the lease renews automatically if any oil/gas are produced from the well. Do not stress this point. Just state that the lease is for 5 years. They don't need to know, or discover through discussions with us, that the lease can extend indefinitely with no further permission from the landowner. 

Seems to me it is right from the book...it's a scam.   Notice they didn't even think that the landowner would even read the contract in that point on how long the lease is.

if some of you cannot read the way this is posted, please click on the link, I had trouble copy and pasting it here.  Does some of this sound familiar to you landowners?

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Permalink Reply by 0l1a6laz7smpf on April 1, 2012 at 10:33am

Thomas,

I think today more people are more educated because of the mistakes they found out that their neighbors went thru. We here have joined a forum on the www cause we looked for more knowledge ...some had lawyers, and some still didn't understand the contract.   So here we are at this forum but if it hadn't been for a flimsy one sided low-ball $100 2 year option pipeline contract I wouldn't have known about gomarcellusshale and met many that are here, for I learned by just google searching the word 'pipeline' and found this site.  

Yet almost two years later i was recently presented with the same flimsy one sided low-ball $500 2 year option contract....the oil companies hadn't learned a thing...or the agents they hired haven't....they only raised the option money up 400dollars...same clauses.  Now when you hand a decent human being an offer for something they own...most people don't insult the owner of what their property is worth or the value of their time...but not the oil companies, doesn't seem to bother them.   If you have a house worth 200,000 dollars and you don't even have it for sale, and someone comes to you and says i will give you $200 down, a two year option to buy, and pay you $145,000.00 if I exercise the option....would you even spend a minute reviewing that contract?   That is what they are doing...they are presenting a new idea when the landowner didn't even know they were coming, then offering a measly option consideration (which wouldn't even cover the cost of a lawyer) wanting to hold the property for two years with a mere promise at at reduced rate of return that they wouldn't sell at if it was theirs?  And today they are still presenting the same contracts, they haven't learned.  It takes far too long to negotiate these contracts from a one-sided Lessee standpoint (at less than flea market bargains) to a fair for both parties to have a working well constructed contract and working system.  Why some of the granting clauses on some of these leases could actually use up the landowners entire property...the oil company could even put a cracker plant on the premises or chemical ponds....You might say, 'well , that's the owner's fault ...they should have found an attorney to handle the contract....what if it was your neighbor, at almost 90 years old, by themself, trusting the land agent in what the newcomer was telling them....did you go to your neighbor and tell him not to trust the land agent?  how many did?  they do today, maybe.

And the leases that were done prior to about 2010 were just as ridiculous if not more....some that signed leases didn't know they needed a special attorney qualified in gas/oil cause many rural areas didn't have special attorneys...in fact one attorney specializing in gas/oil in one county in Pa is having today to handle at least counties.    So the oil companies knew this...they took advantage of it or they hired people to take advantage of the landowners so they could blame them when the complaints of what people actually signed started showing up.   Even the judicial system didn't know how to handle the complaints and in some cases (especially concerning Elexco) the judge favored the oil company and couldn't believe that an Elexco rep would actually do such.   but they did...that is why i posted that info about the finding of a landman's training manual here in the first post of your discussion.

Surely some have did well...but they had some support somewhere.   When my dad was going to join a landgroup in Pa., he was concerned that he living in another state could not go to the meetings and it was one of the first land groups started in their county and other counties....well it turned out that the Elexco rep calling on my dad in another state by telephone was also the rep handling the Chief representation for the county group...so when he heard that my dad wanted to join the group ...he told my dad 'oh, you don't need to do that', i am handling the contract for them also...I will just use the same contract and addendum they are getting and then you can not worry about not being at the meetings but still get the same contract/addendum", ...dad believed him and so did I ...and we were on the mailing list of the group and we also received the addendum via email....and everything would have worked out ok....except..  the elexco rep left the company suddenly and the new rep swapped the contract and lease and didn't use the landgroup contract as promised.   Dad was so tired of all the contracts he had reviewed and spoke of...and some of the clauses evidentally looked the same to him...so he just signed and i just mailed it to them.   He was also having a rough time, he was dying, and I was having a problem keeping up with all that was happening and of course i didn't get the chance to review the contract til several years later (Jan.2012) and now have discovered they didn't keep the promise (but I do not know if they even knew the promise that the Elexco rep gave...yet I called the Elexco rep and he remembers and was sorry that they didn't know to do so.   Do I think it was a scam?   I think that there was poor performance on the Elexco rep by not turning over the file to the new rep with knowledge of what was the actual negotiations and too much pressure was on my dad at the same time as he was 87 and facing his death in a real way.    Did my dad do wrong by not hiring a lawyer that does gas/oil...he didn't know any and it wasn't a time to trust someone new and when he was comforted that the rep would use the same contract that the landgroup was using....he didn't pursue legal help then.   Now I can see that our family was cheated of something good and I believe these oil companies need to clean up their sales tools , especially their contracts.  I think as long as these oil companies continue to use their cleverly worded contracts to deceive the innocent, and ignorant, (not experts) then it is not fair and it is a scam.   The oil companies are hoping that someone will sign into a huge unitization clause (not limiting them), hoping that someone will sign thinking that they can easily renew and not make a change to the extension of lease clause (or any change to it)...hoping.

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Permalink Reply by 0l1a6laz7smpf on April 1, 2012 at 10:55am

  WE WERE REPEATEDLY TOLD THAT IN FIVE YEARS THE LEASE WOULD END AND WE COULD NEGOTIATE THE UPFRONT BONUS MONEY AGAIN....REPEATEDLY TOLD THIS AS WE ASKED WHAT ALL THESE CLAUSES MEANT.   WE WERE TOLD THAT WE NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT LEARNING THE TECHNICAL WORDING OF THE CONTRACTS THAT WE COULD LEARN AS WE GO AND RE-NEGOTIATE AT THE END OF THE FIVE YEARS.   wE WERE ALSO TOLD SEVERAL TIMES BY DIFFERENT LANDAGENTS THAT THEY WERE GETTING READY TO MOVE TO ANOTHER LOCATION IN pa and we must make our decision right away....among other verbal promises made. And of course dad was really comforted knowing that the agent promised to utilize the landgroup contract...if he would have known don't you think he would have joined the group by making a small contribution....but he was told he didn't need to.  

Thomas, even in your statement above you say 'always' that should tell you something isn't right..

       I always hear these stories about landmen making such statements 

(thomas,....the oil companies 'scammed' the landowners and it is about time they hear what the people think of them for doing such.   Right now many just want some royalties so they don't have to think about what would happen if they or their children don't see any royalties and they leased for way below what they are making per acre today).   Read the definition of 'scam'...they scammed.

4 definitions of fraud described below: 

1. A deception practiced in order to secure unfair  gain. (didn't the oil company flip the lease in the same year after paying the man 2k and they received 6K per acre? and not even a drill in the ground yet?)
2. any act, expression, omission, or concealment that deceives another to his or her disadvantage; specifically, it is:
   • a misrepresentation, omission or concealment of some fact material to a transaction; and   (not telling someone that if they sign with those clauses the way they are they could end up with a much longer lease with no payout or even royalties for some time)
   • it is made with knowledge (or the reasonable expectation that the perpetrator should know) that it is false or is made in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity and
   • with the intent to deceive another and
   • that is reasonably relied on by the other who is injured thereby
3. A piece of trickery; a trick.
4. Lastly; describing the person who commits the act:
   1. One that defrauds; a cheat.

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Permalink Reply by Kathleen on April 1, 2012 at 1:02pm

First I want to say I've been standing on my roof top yelling to whom ever will listen to not talk to any landman without help since 10'. Half the people listen while the other half keep saying but he told me this, he told me that, he's nice and my husband or wife thinks he's giving us a special one time rate.........or the best one is, my neighbor knows best and this is the deal we will take since he knows this stuff. You have to let people make there own mistakes sometimes after so many attempts to at least get them to look into facts on their own.
Right after a friend of mine signed an alov lease and the bonus prices were heading north she said even after attending more than one meeting that, "that's okay the odds they will drill in five years is slim and I'll get the bigger amount". I was floored and had to be the one to show her in her lease that in 5 years and no production she would still get the same amount. Actually it works out higher per acre since that lease broke up the payments per acre per year but it wouldnt be a dime more than her first check was. I felt bad, but you have to listen. I believe alov went over each section.
I strongly believe there should be a starter contract the attorney generals office in each state says is at least not basically stealing from the landowner than from there you can work a better to fairer deal for your situation. A lease also where you have to initial each section stating it was explained to you and or you refused an attorney. Remember those calls were if they just recorded a yes from you, you signed up for something and nothing was in writing to confirm you knew what you were buying, they just needed the recorded yes. I fought for an elderly woman on this and won and headed straight to the congressmans office asking for legislation to stop this practice. I went in 3 times. My complaints didn't stop that but my voice with others did!
Many Elderly people are loney and a knock at the door with a smile on the strangers face is welcoming. We have to have a fair starter lease!
I wonder if a big enough group of elderly people could start a class action suit. There is so many laws on the books to protect the elderly and the ball has been dropped concerning this. And yes they signed and they are adults but I don't care anymore we need a a starter lease.

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Permalink Reply by 0l1a6laz7smpf on April 1, 2012 at 2:47pm

thank you Kathleen for sharing... and thank you also for caring about others.  Many of the elderly that signed back before 2010 are at the age of expiration or have already died.  My mom died the year after dad and frankly i hadn't reviewed the lease til last Jan. cause just like one of your friends I thought it would be renewed in five years and would be able to receive the new rate for that time for the bonus if no royalties.   didn't realize the contract clauses were cleverly worded to give an extension to the oil company ...you see when i discovered that link above about the find of a landman's training manual (and I certainly believe it)...I realize why we really were convinced that there would be a new lease in five years cause we were being told that..and that is in the training manual.  The representative from Elexco said he had just become a Christian to me...I must say I leave him with the Christ to help him repent...we have lost many thousands of dollars cause of his foolishness...like maybe even a million (no kidding, many acres).

you write,

I strongly believe there should be a starter contract the attorney generals office in each state says is at least not basically stealing from the landowner than from there you can work a better to fairer deal for your situation.

This is why I suggest that either the oil corporations go thru hiring a new branch of NAR (national association of realtors as it is property) so that the agents are properly trained and the contracts are fair and must be disclosed...as a way to overcome this problem.   Yet I hope some oil company CEO in one of the biggest oil companies reads this discussion and gets thoroughly convicted of what his company has done to all these people (and there are many) and does like a Toyota recall...and builds better but better for the best for our people in these United States where the marcellus shale is located.   This error of their way is a real scam and our legislators are also responsible to get something done for what the oil companies have done to cheat people of fair and balanced business dealings.   Most are afraid of them...and with the threats of 'we will just go around you' or 'we will use Emminant domain'....they should have been stopped and not allowed to peddle in the counties til the contracts and landpeople had been thoroughly reviewed.  I think the girl scouts selling cookies have to account to someone...what about the oil companies?

I think that I started in on this discussion since it is titled about a woman named Deborah Rodgers whom I had not heard of before...is that i didn't like someone wanting to call her a woman of 'a lack of understanding and not an expert'  (at the link) when the oil companies were seeking such to sign the leases with!  that is why i have stated what I have stated in this discussion...I see that Thomas started another discussion about her yet I think that she is right whether an expert or not....This is an excerpt from the discussion at the link that thomas has provided at the lead of this discussion regarding Ms. Rodgers:

It seemed her dominant, and underlying, theme is that there is a conspiracy to scam investors by lying about natural gas abundance and making America dependent on natural gas by driving down prices temporarily and coercing us to convert new uses for natural gas.  She supposes then, when the overestimated wells “fall on their face,” prices will rise and we will all have to pay up to the evil companies and be left with an environmental wasteland.

Well , with what I have told you all about the scam tactics in just signing up the leases to begin with....how could she not be an expert on what she is saying at present?  They scammed the landpeople in some areas (not all) so why not the investors as well?  Yet it is when and if the investors hurt like the landowners have been...the investors are in a better postion to deal with the oil companies much more than the ignorant landowners they scammed using hired help and unfair contractual terms.

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