Does the new impact fee law violate medical ethics?
There's an interesting discussion going on the State Impact PA site about the new impact fee provision for disclosure of fracking fluids to medical personnel. Here's what the legislation says:
“If a health professional determines that a medical emergency exists and the specific identity and amount of any chemicals claimed to be a trade secret or confidential proprietary information are necessary for emergency treatment, the vendor, service provider or operator shall immediately disclose the information to the health professional upon a verbal acknowledgment by the health professional that the information may not be used for purposes other than the health needs asserted and that the health professional shall maintain the information as confidential. The vendor, service provider or operator may request, and the health professional shall provide upon request, a written statement of need and a confidentiality agreement from the health professional as soon as circumstances permit, in conformance with regulations promulgated under this chapter.”
Dr. Jerome Paulson, Professor of Pediatrics & Public Health at George Washington University, says the law runs counter to medical ethics, would slow down delivery of care, and would also impede collection of information about ongoing health effects: http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/2012/02/16/leading-public-h...
The impact fee authors say it's not a problem; the wording of the measure was a compromise between those concerned about medical care delivery and those concerned about non-disclosure of fracking compounds:
http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/2012/02/16/impact-fee-autho...
Does that provision reflect an industry attempt to conceal health risks? Will it slow health care in event of accidents, as providers suggest? Should health professionals have a seat at the table when regulations or laws are being drafted? Does it worry anyone?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 0l1a6laz7smpf on
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I think that clause makes sense. It is only covering that a med. worker who would need to know immed. what chemicals may be in the area (perhaps because of water or whatever situation that might involve any of the fracking materials in the area...it would give them a chemical composition to know what or what not to administer emer. treatment). that way they are not there without any way to help...and the responsibility is placed on the oil companies to disclose that info asap if need be instead of any time lag with beaurocracy in trying to find out.
They must have had some experience with such in Colorado to even bother to try to get legislation passed.
but yet...I went to that link you provided and there was additional language....
A provision does allow health providers access to the information in order to treat a patient, but requires the healthcare worker to sign a confidentiality agreement, that obligates the medical professional to use the information only to treat an individual patient
that part I don't think is good. That's like hey we will give you the facts for only your emer. work...but don't you tell anyone what is the ingredients to anyone else. They may do that because some oil companies do not want to give out their 'concoction' of what they use for fracking fluids.
and I don't like this either:
The law also exempts companies from revealing anything that may have resulted from a chemical reaction between several fracking ingredients.
why not just disclose to each Lessor what chemicals are being used on site and they keep that list available in their homes just in case....and if there is any change or chem. reactions that the lessor should know of then they update their disclosure....banks do it all the time in updating their disclosure practices...why not something as important as this? Yet, I think this is all related to not disclosing to each other's oil company what their concoction is that they are utilizing and it may be changing not always the same chemicals used.
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Permalink Reply by Carol Kuniholm on
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This sounds like a good idea - and would help with exposure to ingredients going in. But does anyone test or know specifically what comes out? That seems the more likely exposure, but if no one knows what it is, doctors can't treat for it.
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Seriously??? you could bathe in frac water and it isn't going to harm you. I have heard of guys even swilling down a big old glass of frac water in what was probably an ill conceived attempt to show how safe the water is. The chemical components contained in frac water that are pumped into the formation are in such minute concentrations that you far better off coming in contact with it than you would be to come into contact with most of the products found under your kitchen sink.
Frac water that is returned to the surface in the flow back process contains higher concentrations of chlorides and traces of naturally occurring radioactivity, neither of which are going to cause a medical responder any issues.
There are far greater concerns that medical responders face on a daily basis.
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Jim - Have you bathed in frac water? Would you?
Here's some of the discussion from the state impact site- "regarding the MSDS, in an analysis of 980 oil and gas products, the MSDS for almost half of them (421) reported less than 1% of the total composition of the product. (For complete numbers see Amy Mall's NRDC blog post here:
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/bl... ) Physicians working from that 1% of information would be fundamentally in the dark.
"Further, the industry is being completely let off the hook by not being required to disclose what they know about "naturally occurring" contaminants, from arsenic and benzene to radium 226, toluene and uranium, because -- get this -- they didn't "add" those toxins to drilling mud or fracking fluid, they just happen to flow back up from the deep earth. So even if the drilling company has the data sitting right there, they are not obliged to share it with a physician even if a patient's life is at risk. Even if that patient would never, ever have come into contact with those "naturally occurring" contaminants if not for drilling and fracking. Because residents of shale country have in fact drunk tap water laced with benzene (one example among many is here: http://checksandbalancesprojec... because workers and emergency room personnel have in fact been made very sick, almost died, almost asphyxiated from inhaling fumes, and because there have been deaths, both from acute exposure and from accumulated exposure (Chris Mobaldi and Jose Lara come to mind) as well as terrible sickness (Stacey Haney, Laura Amos, and too many to name), and because residents of shale country find that doctors are sometimes "over their heads" with knowing how to treat them because not every physician is an environmental toxicologist... these are very serious issues. It's not a matter of just decontaminating for a few minutes and the person is then OK. Exposure to some gas drilling contaminants, including toluene, including 2-butoxyethanol, can have severe and lasting health impacts, ranging from severe headaches to death. No, the MSDS is far from adequate and no, physicians being forced to keep public health information secret from their patients, from each other, and from the public is not OK. Lives are at stake, information is power, and public health matters."
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No, I haven't personally bathed in the frac water that is introduced into the Shale formations but it wouldn't freak me out to do so because I know that the chemical composition wouldn't harm me. We all breathe "fumes" every day... car exhaust, exhaust from power plants that burn coal, exhaust from factories that produce toxic chemicals that are far more harmful than what producers introduce into frac water. What's your point? Why do you choose to focus on oil and gas development and subject them to far more stringent regulations than are in existence for other industries. I don't understand the selective nature of your prosecutorial position. Not to suggest that two wrongs make a right, but is there some particular motivation to apply differing standards to the oil and gas industry?
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I think we bring up these issues to discuss ...evidentally it was important enough for the state senate to discuss it....so it is that we are here to discuss..with each of our points of view so that we may more fully understand the process and especially what we were talked into signing and allowing on our lands.
It sounds like you are in the oil/gas business or are very knowledgeable....so let me tell you that we look forward to your input as most of us Lessors come to this forum to learn and if we just listened to each other without experience or knowledge to share then we aren't growing in exact truth that way....and perhaps just relying on sharing links off google searches (which are helpful) but the discussions help us form more of an understanding.
i certainly appreciate Carol introducing this info even though for some they may not see nor understand the importance of it. And thank you Jim also for sharing what you know about such with us.
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I am in fact "in the industry" and thus you can apply the appropriate filter to the statements I make. I don't begrudge intelligent discussions of any topic and the majority of the offerings here are well thought out and articulate. That said, the same filter can be applied to some of the "non industry" statements that are being made here. I am more than willing to disclose my affiliations, I don't see some of the others willing to share their biases.
The oil and gas industry is far from perfect, but then again, judging from the number of politicians that are being booted from office for unethical conduct, the number of physicians that are sued for medical malpractice (and who incidentally cause the deaths of FAR more individuals than the oil and gas industry ever thought of harming)... nobody is perfect. I merely suggest not applying different standards to my industry.
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thanks Jim. If it wasn't for your input I wouldn't have understood the impact fee law that was just passed ...as I don't know if I could have found that so easily on that long bill presentation. So though we all don't agree with the titles of our discussions sometimes or the input of the one that introduces the topic to discuss....we sure do learn when we all input something to share to give more light to the situation. A good example of that is the topic Mark introduced called, '
http://gomarcellusshale.com/forum/topics/close-all-gasoline-station... You have to read the discussion to see that the topic name which seems absurb turns out a better discussion than we thought we would have.
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Hello all,
As you look at all posts for the right answers , i fully believe when you the landowner agree to be a partner in this gas and oil business ,you should be entitled to have the information needed to make sure your family and neighbors are able to be safe from anything that may be applied into onto or around your property.
Once you are a partner you as the landowner also become part owner in the liabilities which may or may not occur related to operations on your property .
As I said before it is very hard to believe that with the technology and the spying that goes on within any business ,how could you actually hide the contents of a propriety mix from anyone that really wanted to know ,such as the competition.
Sadly money seems to be able to be used to acquire many good and bad things in life regardless of what it may be .
As far as medical personnel needing to know the contents to treat for any related problems ,why would this ever be withheld or slowed down before treatment can be started.
How many people in the industry would feel it was not needed if a transport truck with waste materials that are to be pumped into a disposal hole were to have an accident (god forbid ) but to have your family involved and these fluids leak onto your family members and the medical respondents on the site had to wait to sign a release to treat the injured parties , especially if some people have a natural allergic reaction to any one of the various chemicals .
Many good people volunteer to help those in need at the local fire departments for no pay at all and they should never be given any added risk if there is anything to worry about ,since they are there to help if needed .
These people are exposed to many dangers and anytime this can be limited with the knowledge related to various areas ,it should not be a problem .
Several years ago I never thought about anything but helping when person had rolled a vehicle on its top when he lost control driving drunk ,when we helped pull this person quickly we had little time to delay since the gasoline was running over it side , he came out and was so internally damaged he spit blood all over my face as we moved him to safety , it wasn't until after the fact that I was told I needed to find out from the hospital if this person had any diseases that could be easily transmitted through my eyes since this is a direct place into a persons system .
I was not allowed to be told this information at that time from the hospital but about a year later the law was passed to tell rescue people if the person they came in contact had aids or anything else that could cause medical problems for the rescuer .(I was lucky no problems )
Even though I was on a rescue team where I worked , we did not discuss how to protect yourself from all situations , we knew to wear gloves to keep blood off you ,but never discussed someone so hurt that they may spit blood onto you .
I use this as an example to say that not all situations are fully prepared for when there are variables in every one . But prior known knowledge discussed with someone who may be involved to help someone can be used teach people how to protect themselves and how to treat those they are helping if needed .
This being just an example which also needs to consider activity near a well site on your property both before and after the well is completed .
I know of people who a small bee sting will kill , and peanut oil can put them in the same type of shock which can easily cause death if not treated quickly.
Everyone knows that different people have various levels of tolerance and resistance to chemical exposure , high blood pressure or cholesterol problems and time can be essential in the end result ..
But if there is a chance that an unmixed concentration of anything that is either injected or can come out of the earth as part of the overall process why not play everything on the safe side if it takes so little effort to do .
When My own daughter had severe medical problems ,I also took the time to visit a persons child I had met , when I walked into the cancer ward and saw these children who have just begun life , struggling to survive but still able to make a smile , it makes you think that everything you could do to help prevent this situation from happening would still not be enough and if you don't have tears in your eyes you are not human .
But if you have the ability to make the difference to protect just a few, you owe it to yourself to know you have accomplished more in life than many who never get a chance to live long enough to make a difference .
Basically if there are dangers involved let's join together to learn or to help teach how to limit these dangers and work together to still be able to move forward and help our countries energy needs ,with the right checks and balances almost anything can be made to work.
If there are better methods developed it would be worthwhile to lose a little profit to continue to move forward than to be stopped completely with regulations .
This is not to be considered just for the oil business but in your own home with the chemicals you have under the counters as well, as far as the need to know the dangers and the requirements for treatment to exposure ,
Every parent or caregiver needs to be knowledgeable as to what to do in case of an emergency in your home .
Even trained as a confined space rescue respondent ,there was always something different to do before you could actually begin to treat the injured party , like removing a danger to yourself first , de-energizing a power supply, and getting the proper MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet )to tell you what chemical could be there and how to do immediate treatment to preserve , life , sight or severe pain for the victim . until you could get them out to transport to a hospital , this is why anything that can take time away from someone that is there to help is so important ,
You don't always have the time to call poison control or wait to be informed of the chemical contents then be required to sign to get the needed information , then still need to figure the proper treatment for the problem , when there can be many other parts to a safety issue .
Everyone knows the fear of the unknown will cause more worries and limitations than displaying the proof to ease everyone's mind about the subject
Let's learn together from those that know enough to make a difference for the good of everyone .
Best Wishes for a productive safe future .
Mick
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You're welcome... we have far more important things to worry about, like celebrities that accidentally drown themselves via drug induced episodes in their bathtubs. How come we don't have legislation to address these things???
Dang...bit my tongue while it was in my cheek!
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Permalink Reply by Billy Park Whyde on -
What a bunch of bull i could save a mint on fertilizer if Carol would only spread it on my farm!
Here is your so called SENSATIONALIZM
" Because residents of shale country have in fact drunk tap water laced with benzene (one example among many is here: http://checksandbalancesprojec... because workers and emergency room personnel have in fact been made very sick, almost died, almost asphyxiated from inhaling fumes, and because there have been deaths, both from acute exposure and from accumulated exposure (Chris Mobaldi and Jose Lara come to mind)"
Tell us give us the links to your fabricated emergency room EMERGENCIES! SEcond lets look at a fact here " Last year on September 11th, Jose Lara, a worker who was exposed to fracking chemicals while spray washing containers that held them, died at the age of 42. Two months later, Chris Mobaldi of Garfield County Colorado, who had been sickened by intensive exposure to gas drilling fumes, died from a rare pituitary tumor. In both cases, the dying individual, their families, and their family physician believe the cause was exposure to chemicals from shale gas drilling.
Carol if you were a teacher in my school district I would see you fired in a heart beat!
http://www.frackcheckwv.net/impacts/the-human-story/
Among those , the well water at the home of Carl Stiles and his wife Judy was contaminated with heavy metals.
The radiation level in the home is 13.7 or 7 times that set by EPA as a standard not to be exceeded.
Every time I see this the story changes! Wow 13.7 times in Licking County Ohio homes test out at 400& above EPA levels for radioactive levels, with no ftacking in the area!
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Permalink Reply by craig on
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This doesn't concern me nearly as much as it obviously does you.
Carol, maybe you should try and look at this from another perspective. Lets say you put your savings into a new version of frack fluid that is completely green, no nothing, you can drink it, cook with it , swim in it and it is completely benign. Then you test it on a well and wow the results are phenomenal. Now just how willing are you to let your own recipe out into the public eye so that your competitors can get the same results without paying you a penny for all the capital and time you have spent. Answer, you wouldn't be willing at all.
I understand your perspective, so please try to understand the industries perspective as well. THEN and only then can you make an educated statement. It is a real conundrum to be sure.
I personally know two folks who work for Pumpco in the fracking business, at the wellsites. They are not having any health issues to speak of. Sure there will be an accident here and there, but please don't put those rare incidences out there as though it is the norm.
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