Why is everyone so afraid?

This is a decent site, I suspect it's monitored by the majors.  The undertone of the posts seems to be fear, imo.  You have a reason to be afraid as you are in a position where information is asymmetric.  They have it, you don't.  You know you're bringing a knife to a gun fight.  John Meynard Keynes said " in the long run, we're all dead".  Unwillingness to compromise or negotiate is the last resort of the ignorant.  No one gets the top price in the stock market, don't expect it in O&G.  Life isn't fair, cut your own deal and move on.  Anyone who tries to extrapolate recent deals is a fool.  You can't know all the variables.  Have I left out any cliches?

   

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Permalink Reply by gary smith on February 26, 2012 at 1:18pm

matthew, go watch 'act of valor' and then thank God you live in america.

Permalink Reply by time will tell on February 26, 2012 at 2:22pm

Gary , LOL

Permalink Reply by Carol Kuniholm on February 26, 2012 at 2:09pm

The phrasing here is interesting. There's plenty of evidence of pollution of water supplies by fracking fluids, some delivered to municipal water systems that couldn't handle the toxins, some dumped accidentally - or not so accidentally - into streams and waterways, some seeping from poorly lined pools. But apparently "the process of hydraulic fracturing" means just the drilling? That's like doing an operation where the patient dies from poorly managed anesthesia, and the doctor says, "the operation was a success."  

It would be more helpful to the discussion to point out that so far as we know, the fears of migration from the actual drilling process haven't been proven, IF drilling isn't done in areas where there are abandoned mines, and IF well casings are installed properly. But then again, if you're only talking about drilling, or even more narrowly, hydraulic fracturing, the fact that no one is looking for mines, or inspecting well casings, doesn't matter. 

I'd argue that the "process" starts with the lease, continues through the permit, and doesn't end until the frack fluid has been processed safely, the well has been capped, and the area remediated. And even then, the process isn't really over - because we won't know for decades what happens as casings crumble, or what happens to the shale as different substances left down there continue to migrate through the rock. 

But no worries! There's never been a confirmed incident. 

Permalink Reply by Carol Kuniholm on February 27, 2012 at 12:36pm

Mark, I understand that you need to see everyone as for or against, but in the real world there are lots of people who live in that space in the middle, who really do want to have honest conversation, real discussion of dangers, reasonable ways to address those dangers.  When those people are shouted down, eventually they take their concerns elsewhere - which, unfortunately, is to the conplete ban forever camp. But most people don't start there -they start with "I'm concerned and I don't feel like I"m being heard." 

And, since you've made such a point about facts, responding to what's said, etc. would it help for me to point out that you didn't really respond to the bulk of what I said, or offer any facts?

Jim ShoosPermalink Reply by Jim Shoos on February 26, 2012 at 5:17pm

Well gee whiz Carol, since hydraulic fracturing has been occurring since the 1960's and there still isn't any documented instances where frac fluids have migrated to ground water sources I'm not sure how long you would like for us to wait around for your assertions to be disproved.  You are correct in stating that there have been instances in which wellheads failed (Chesapeake in 2011), where lined pits have leaked, where frac trucks have crashed leaking frac fluids.  I am not personally aware of where any of these instances has been proven to have resulted in any long term environmental issues.  These are unfortunate, but far from tragic when compared to countless other industries.  I'm sure you have been out there on the battle lines protesting and hitting the websites to confront all these other industries, right? 

Permalink Reply by Carol Kuniholm on February 27, 2012 at 1:05pm

Hi Jim,

Hydraulic fracturing has been around since the 40s, but high volume slickwater hydraulic fracturing is much more recent, as is horizontal drilling - and very recent in the Marcellus Shale. There are some big differences. Some are immediate and obvioius: much more water use, far more chemicals, far more cuttings to dispose of, more toxic wastes to dispose of, much higher volume of truck traffic, more surface disturbance.  

But there are other differences, some unique to areas where there are old wells, some unique to areas where there are old mines, some unique to the Marcellus Shale itself. So the concern is that we move ahead too quickly when there are lots of issues that haven't really been addressed. 

And yes, there are occasional accidents in other industries - but the perception in this is that information has been withheld, and continues to be withheld. is that accurate, or just perception? 

As for long term environmental issues - there's the growing chorus of people who can no longer use the water in their wells. I know there's significant controversy over that - but that just underscores that this is a new industry, not an old one. It should be industry standard to have any private wells tested in an area before drilling starts. 

Permalink Reply by ji on February 27, 2012 at 3:26pm

oil and gas puts the cart before the horse. Drill wells first, upgrade the casing specs later. Produce waste first, find proper disposal solutions later. Ship gas to china, run out later.

Permalink Reply by craig on February 27, 2012 at 3:34pm

If life was only that simple.

fwiw, there isn't a shipping facility yet available for cooling and loading LNG in our country. I hope you haven't bought into the "we are selling gas to China" statement. Isn't true, however it maybe true in the future.

Jim ShoosPermalink Reply by Jim Shoos on February 27, 2012 at 5:11pm

Carol,

Regardless of the inception of fracing, regardless of the techniques, regardless of the volumes of water involved in the process or the chemical cocktails involved, there is still no evidence that any of them have resulted in the contamination of drinking water supplies.  You seem to have shifted your focus from hydro-fracing to cuttings, to truck traffic and surface disturbance... pardon me but I don't see the correlation of these ancillary issues to fracing and your allegations of drinking water contamination. 

Information withheld... show me when and where?  Accidents occur every day.  How about you calculate how much anti freeze, gasoline and oil gets spilled onto the streets and highways every day as a result of traffic accidents... all of which get hosed down into the sewers or into the creeks that are adjacent.  Trust me, these incidents far outnumber, in terms of sheer volumes, the number of chemicals that drillers expose to your environment.  Human existence takes a heavy toll on the environment.  Tell me how many of your friends actually take their mercury laden  fluorescent bulbs to be properly recycled versus pitching them into the regular trash to find their way into landfills.  How many complex carbon compounds from tire wear get washed off the streets and highways by rainfall into the sewers and creeks?  Why single out oil and gas producers when there are so many other far more harmful sources of harmful chemicals that are actually proven to be detrimental to human health?

Permalink Reply by Jason on February 27, 2012 at 5:28pm
Well said.
Permalink Reply by Frank Walker on February 27, 2012 at 5:57pm

You know not whereof you speak.  I have tens of NG wells all around me, in every direction, with more going in every day.  I have no water problems and neighbors have none whatsoever.  There has never been a ground water contamination problem attributable to fracking, and unrelated to a surface spill or an improperly constructed well.  There have, indeed, been contamination problems related to NG drilling, but not to fracking.  Many of those problems will disappear as wells depressurize as a natural consequence of NG production.  Were corners cut in the past?  I believe they were.  Is this an ongoing problem?  Not at all absent a willful flaunting of DEP regulations.  The drillers are pretty darn good at what they do, and they know how to drill safely.

For thousands of us living amidst so much drilling, the mindless theoretical musings of the ivory tower set are amusing.  Truly, they need to think less and get out more. 

If it's the handling of frack water post construction that worries you, I agree with you standards need to be rigid.  But here where I live frack water is mostly being recycled and then re-used to frack new wells.  It is a cheaper approach.  I concede, though, that this is a recent development.

Permalink Reply by mbc on February 27, 2012 at 7:00pm

Clearly, Carol, you are not interested in truly addressing the issues you feel the O/G industry has, which flits from one to another like a butterfly in the breeze.  Your goal appears to be, for whatever misguided reason, to shut it down and keep it down. 

The thing is, if you lived your life without the comfort and extremely convenient amenities the O/G industry provides (assuming you don't -since you access a computer and the internet), your postings wouldn't have the aura of hypocrisy about them.  There's the old adage...careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

There's no chorus.  That's the sound of your own deception ringing in your ears. 

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