Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike Knapp on March 2, 2011 at 3:47am

KSM.

 

You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.  I suggest you inform yourself as to the real facts of our industry before you come here and tell us how bad it is. 

 

Mike

 

 

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Permalink Reply by KSM on March 2, 2011 at 4:51am

Mike, I'm not here to cause a tizzy. I'm not anti-drilling or anti-industry. I'm being PRO-COMMUNITY.  There is a difference there, though it may not seem that way.  Put it this way, would you tell the airlines that you don't need an oxygen mask or a floatation device and the airline attendants don't need emergency training because there are no inherent dangers with hurling yourself through the air at 30,000 feet in an airplane?   Do you think those are put on the plane by executives at Amtrak as a scare tactic to get you to take the train?  I am truly baffled by this animosity around requesting that we put some simple safeguards and training in place given what we know to be true. 

 

Nate suggested that I was being "vague" in my facts, which I can only assume is because I respectfully declined to "name names"  in the company whose infraction history I shared, though it is public record.  I'm assuming that as landowners everyone here has already done that homework regarding the company's safety/infraction record because I cannot imagine you would allow a company set up an inudstrial jobsite in a populated area (or your own backyard) without knowing that information.

 

But since no one here wants to discuss the tiniest possibility that something COULD go wrong here and maybe we SHOULD prepare our residents and EMT personnel for those possibilities, below is a list of the best and brightest "oopsies" from our neighbors in PA in less than 2 years, keeping in mind the total tally was 1600 infractions for the state across all sites.  Because it has become so apparent of the nastyness of the hardcore pro-drill/screw you contingent, I will still refrain from putting the actual company name in this list out of fear.  It's great to be in America with first amendment rights that you're actually afraid to use, isn't it?  You do realize it is this kind of response to community concerns that gives the industry a bad name.  I'm actually a very friendly voice here. I want to see this be a win-win for ALL involved.  Are you suggesting that what I've proposed are BAD ideas?  Then please tell me why.  Let's discuss it.  It saddens me that the first two responses I've recieved have been filled only with name-calling and animosity rather than addressing what I'm requesting be done to protect our residents that are now living near an industrial jobsite...that has inherent dangers to it that could very possibly NEVER occur, but I still want my proverbial (maybe literal) oxygen mask and my floatation device.  Just accept that there are inherent and potential dangers to it so we can please move on and talk about how to best move forward within our communities to prepare for this new industry in our midst.  Or is that not something that gets discussed here?  I thought this was meant for ALL PEOPLE, COMPANIES, AND PLACES RELATED TO THE MARCELLUS SHALE. 

• In February 2009 **** spilled 100 gallons of diesel fuel at Dimock, PA (WGNB News, “100 Gallons of Diesel Fuel Spilled“).
• May 2009, the Pennsylvania DEP ordered ***** and **** Oil & Gas to suspend operations at two sites in Lycoming County for violating PA’s Clean Stream Law. The companies were withdrawing water from Hoagland Run and First Fork Larry’s Creek without having obtained the required permits (DEP, “DEP Orders Partial Shutdown“).
• In June 2009 a leaking waste water pipe from a ******* gas well polluted a tributary of Cross Creek Lake in Washington County, PA. The spill killed fish, salamanders, crayfish, and aquatic insects (Pittsburgh Post Gazette “Waste from Marcellus”)
• On October 22, 2009, PA DEP fined ***** $56,650 for three separate spills of a water/liquid gel mixture into Stevens Creek and a wetland near Dimock, PA. The spills totaled 8,000 gallons (DEP, “DEP Fines *****”).
• On January 20, 2010 the Pennsylvania DEP fined ***** $6000 for spilling 7 tons of “gaswell drilling wastewater sludge” in Avis, PA. The dump truck driver drove away even though he saw the spill (DEP, “DEP Fines ***” ).
• On February 1, 2010 the Pennsylvania DEP fined ******$3500 for various infractions at a Bradford County site, including the discharge of fracking fluid into a tributary of Sugar Creek (DEP, “DEP Fines ****” ).
• On March 15, 2010, a foamy substance, was detected running into Pine Creek, near Waterville. The DEP has determined that the substance was Airfoam HD, a chemical used in the drilling process. The substance came from a drilling site run by *****(LH Express, “Heavy Rains “).
• On March 20th, 2010, a truck hauling water for a hydro-fracturing operation slammed into the back of a car near Mansfield, killing Mildred Barnhard, a 74-year-old Lock Haven woman (LH Express: “LH Woman” ).
• On March 26th, 2010, ***** spilled 8,000 to 12,000 gallons of synthetic-based mud at a drilling site in the Sproul State Forest in Clinton County (LH Express: “Drilling Mud“).
• On April 16, 2010, the Pennsylvania Dept. of Transportation revoked ***** road use permit for Route 1007 in Bradford County. ****** failed to respond to two notices of unsafe conditions and thus violated their agreement to proactively monitor conditions and repair the road when needed. In March, PennDOT revoked their permit for Route 1001 for the same reasons (LH Express, “PennDOT Revokes “)
• On April 23, 2010, The Pennsylvania DEP fined ***** of ****, PA $6,500 for operating an illegal fracking water transfer station. Inspectors found a 450 square foot area where fracking water had spilled onto the ground (DEP, “DEP Fines **** “).
• On May 13, 2010, PA DEP fined ***** of State College, PA $45,000 for various environmental violations at its Clearfield County site (DEP, “DEP Fines **** “).
• On May 14, 1010, PA DEP fined ****** $141,175 for spilling 250 barrels of fracking fluid into a high-quality waterway in Washington County. Range failed to report the spill immediately (DEP, “DEP Penalizes ****“).
• On June 3, 2010, a gas well that was being fracked by ***** in Clearfield County experienced a blowout and raged out of control for 16 hours, shooting fracking fluid and gas 75 feet into the air. *** whose spokesperson insisted that protecting the environment is of “utmost importance” to the company, waited five hours before contacting the Department of Environmental Protection (Centre Daily Times, “Gas Spews“). The PA DEP has determined that the accident was caused by “untrained personnel and the failure to use proper well control procedures,” and they fined **** and its contractor *****$400,000 (DEP, “Independent Report“).
• On July 1, 2010, the PA Department of Agriculture quarantined 28 cows after they came into contact with drilling wastewater from a leaking containment pond that was part of a drilling site operated by *****in Tioga County (DEP, “Cattle from Tioga County“).
• On August 2, 2010, the DEP fined ***** USA $15,506 for spilling 4,200-6,300 gallons of used fracking fluid into an unnamed tributary of the Tioga River in Bradford County (DEP, “DEP Fines ****“ ).
• On August 17, 2010, the DEP fined ***** $97,350 for allowing used fracking fluid to overflow a waste water pit and contaminate a tributary of Dunkle Run, a high quality watershed in Washington County. Atlas failed to report the spill to DEP. (DEP, “DEP Fines **** “).
• On August 27, 2010, the DEP reported that over half of the natural gas drillers in PA failed to report their production levels (DEP, “Majority ” ).

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Permalink Reply by KSM on March 2, 2011 at 5:27am

I meant for this to be in my specific county's section (Ohio - Harrison County) so please follow this thread there if you are interested in what "Nate" had to say, my response to him along with specific questions I have about the wording in the leases and what is known about local job creation...and obviously to provide more comments if you wish. 

I am here to learn as well so please if I provide a mis-statement here then let me know, preferably without namecalling or being simply told "you're wrong".  I'd like a dialogue to actually occur.

 

Thanks Go Marcellus Shale.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Knapp on March 2, 2011 at 5:31am

KSM,

 

Most of what you listed are accidental spills of water.  To the best of my knowledge, none of those spills had any sort of significant environmental impact.  Such accidents are a part of any industrial operation.   While we are all striving to get the numbers as close to zero as possible, they will continue to happen from time to time.   Either way, it has nothing to do with lax regulations.   Did you not notice the big fines that these companies received? 

 

Also, lumping traffic accidents and fires into the mix is just silly, especially in the context of them being caused by lack of regulation.  The same night they had the fire in Washington County, there were several fires at area hotels.  Are hotels not regulated heavily enough? 

 

 

I am not calling names.  I'm pointing out that you have your facts wrong, and your suggestions are absurd.   Let me address them individually:

 

1. You say that we have to wait for the "FRAC" act  to cause companies to disclose their fracking ingredients.  The companies have already divulged this info.  They did a long time ago.  This is a non-issue. It's public information.  http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/minres/oilgas/FractListing.pdf

 

2. You want people to sign leases that say that a gas company has to go out and "train" every fire department within 100 miles of their operations and also fund them?  That's preposterous.  I have no problem with seeing local Fire/EMS get trained on this stuff, but that's a regulatory thing, not something that has anything to do with a gas lease.  No gas company would accept anything like that in a lease. 

 

3. You want signs around your property and you want to "inform" the community.   I think this is pretty much common sense.   Also, your portrayal of "drilling rigs running around full of toxic chemicals" is wrong.  For each frack job, there is ONE chemical truck.  And there are trucks running all over our highways every day carrying things FAR FAR more dangerous than fracking chemicals. 

 

4. I would think that most people would notice a massive 100' gas drilling rig in your back yard.  I would think that most people would realize that drilling is an industrial activity and to be respectful of it. 

 

5.  The "lax" regulations you continue to quote already mandate that any water supply affected by gas drilling must be replaced by the gas company.  It's been that way for years. 

 

 

SO, my problem is NOT with you wanting to improve the community, my problem is with you not having you facts straight,  trying to grossly exaggerate the impact of operations, and suggesting to people things that are far outside the realm of the reasonable.   But, like I also said, I'm sure if you do your research you will easily find the holes in your own logic and you will have a much better concept of what it is we actually do... since it's obvious your current concept is askew.

 

If you have any questions for someone that actually works every day in the industry, I'd be happy to field them.

 

Respectfully,

 

Mike Knapp

 

 

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Permalink Reply by KSM on March 2, 2011 at 7:12am

Thank you so much for that response Mike!  I've learned that sometimes the only way you can get someone to pay attention is to start saying something people can react to.

I have some more questions for you since you are so close to the industry and could actually provide me with some knowledgable insight.   Thanks so much for this opportunity to talk with you!  I'm obviously a concerned citizen and also a concerned neighbor and daughter...I mean, what if my little old mom wants to lease her land?  I feel its my civic and family duty to learn all there is to know for her and this community at large.

 

Regarding the regulatory piece, is it up to the specific state to provide the regulations?  It was my understanding that Feds are pretty much out of it. Is that not true, kinda true?    There has been so much talked about in Pennsylvania in particular because of the heightened activity there (and the fact that i live near the PA border so that's where I'm getting most of my news).  Do you happen to know if Ohio is looser or tighter than PA in terms of its regulations/fine amounts/etc.?

Yes, I did notice the fines, which obviously lends itself to the fact that someone in PA is regulating this at some level -- the Dept of Environmental Protection.  You say that most of these were accidental spills of water.  Why would a company get fined for spilling water by the DEP?   I'm also a little confused as to why residents in Dimock are told not to drink their water and another spill causes broad aquatic kill-off, yet it is not considered  technically "significant environmental impact".  Can you please define that term for me and what would need to occur before everyone involved says this is "significant environmental impact"?  Is it the number of people effected, is it how far the toxins actually travel, is it whether or not a major aquifer is tainted versus a smaller waterway?  

 

If a violation occurred that was severe enough to warrant a hefty fine, then that means there was likely something that had to be done to rectify the matter.  What are the internal protocols to ensuring messes are cleaned up and notifying the landowner of the incident right away?  Are these part of regulations in some states that you must contact the landowner (or surrounding communities) of a spill within a certain timeframe or is it up to the individual company's internal processes to determine that?   Are there some types of accidents/spills that are considered de minimis and therefore not expected to be shared with the landowner, or anyone else for that matter?  What might those include?  

 

I respectfully disagree that lumping fire and traffic accidents into the mix is silly, and I thank you for not calling me names. The original responder on another board was the name-caller (moon bat)!  LOL!

 

 

Thanks for addressing each of my suggestions. I really appreciated each response.  My questions in kind are:

1. Do you know if ALL the players have disclosed their chemical pound yet?  I recall Halliburton being a holdout.   Are the companies providing a base-case water sample at the sites prior to driling in order to monitor the levels of these chemicals in the water?  Is this part of regulation or again, is it something done on a company-by-company basis?  Or is the burden on the landowner to ensure they have a report that shows what levels their water was at prior to the drilling? 

 

2. This is my very point about how it feels somewhat like we've been left to our own devices in these poor counties.  If the regulations don't mandate specific training for our volunteer firefighters or require a full-time staff be at the ready within a 25-mile radius (or whatever would be plausible), then how else do we make it happen if the landowners don't ask to enforce this in some way and the county is too poor to hire anyone full-time or to buy all the necessary equipment to fight a natural gas blaze.  It was a little disconcerting to read the news after the Avella fire and hear that Brook County firefighters had been "invited" to a special training by a company who specializes in natural gas fires, but that it wasn't mandatory.  The firefighters there also said they felt they contained it well with the help of several other counties from mutliple states, but also felt they needed more training after being there.  At what point (and how) does the revenue money start flowing into the area to the point where we start feeling it where we the county can hire trained staff and buy the right equipment?  We just shut down the elementary school in my town and we have two part-time cops that aren't even on 24/7.  I'm not sure where the nearest haz-mat team would come in from??  I agree it would be something completely egregious to put in a lease, but if my mom decided to lease her land and a highly flammable process/liquids were on her property, I'd want to make sure the right (and enough) people could show up at the ready to put that baby out ASAP...so yeah, even as a landowner getting ready to lease,  I'd probably ask the company how they could help make that happen given the fact that by their presence alone my potential for needing such a service just went up by some significant number. 

 

3.  I agree that there are trucks every day on the roads carrying much crazier things around.  That is why I meant to have this conversation specific to my home county where the roads can be very windy and already replete with coal trucks and landfill trucks, and we've already had some issues there.   How many rigs IN TOTAL are typically required going to/from/remaining at a job site?  How many rigs then carry the flowback fluid to the dump site?  Oh yeah, that reminds me, what happens if an old coal mine is accidentlally bore into?  Our area has been mined for coal extensively for several generations and I've been wondering about the co-existence of those two operations.

4.  You know what they say about "assuming" anything!  But seriously, do you know how the leases are structured with regard to culpability in the event someone (god forbid) does get injured on/near the site?  Is that still entirely on the landowner's insurance policy or is there recourse with the gas company or is there now shared responsibility?  Is there a particular surface area that the companies basically TAKE OVER as temporary owners, including the culpability of any accidents that may occur there of non-employees (e.g., slipping and hurting their head on an area where one of those water spills have occurred, getting sick from drinking someone else's water that may be tainted).  Again, I know this feels very nit-picky, but as a landowner I'd want to know my rights if my home and environs become interhently a more dangerous place to be.  Should I be considering an increase in my liability insurance?

5.  When you say they have to "replace" the water.  How would that work for my remote home where I depend on well water?  Will a new well be dug?  Will they simply just provide bottled water until the environment "rights" itself?  Does that cover ALL wells that are effected or only the wells that are effected on the LEASED land itself?  How burdensome is it to prove that drilling had caused a well to go bad?  What precautions can ALL residents (not just the landowners with leases) do prior to a well pad coming into their area to ensure they are covered by this water replacement policy?  Is that regulation the same for all states?

 

Is it possible for the driling to actually occur under my own land from someone else's injection site?  How far can it travel?  Do I have a right to request that my neighbor keep whatever distance that is away from my property to ensure there's no "underground trespassing"? 

 

I know there's a LOT here and I certainly don't expect a swift reply to all of them.  As you can tell, I've been dying to start asking questions here.    I appreciate any and all responses you can provide.

 

THANK YOU.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Copley on March 2, 2011 at 6:34am

KSM-- I liked what you said about making this a "Win-Win" for everyone. While I agree with Mike, a few of the things you propose are impractical or unwarranted, there's nothing wrong with suggesting ideas. It seems to me developing the Marcellus shale or other shale basins IS a "Win-Win" solution for the country, in the sense of providing an abundant source of energy inherently less polluting than oil or coal, and a lot less dangerous than nuclear. With the price of natural gas so depressed right now compared to what it had been 3 years ago, and many companies really struggling, how do you see continued development of the Utica shale in Ohio gaining very much momentum over the next couple of years? Aren't companies such as Chesapeake, that has been quite active leasing in Ohio, merely trying to position themselves for future development; what leads you to believe large scale drilling is imminent in Harrison Co. or any other parts of eastern Ohio? --Tom

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Permalink Reply by KSM on March 2, 2011 at 8:37am

Tom, I wholeheartedly agree with you that tapping into other kinds of resources is absolutely vital! While I could sit back and dream of a society that doesn't USE so much energy or use only enough that could be generated from wind or hydo power, I'm not an idiot.  God knows I personally love to turn the lights on at night, crank the heat up when I'm cold, get into my gas eating car even when I know I *could* be taking public transportation.  It, for better or worse, is what it is....

 

Please understand that I likely wouldn't even BE at this website asking so many questions, requesting what many believe to be impractical or unwarranted protections if:

a) accidents and personal stories about groundwater contamination and bickering with the oil & gas companies about culpability didn't seem to show up in the news so often

b) if Cheney - the former CEO of Halliburton  -- wouldn't have pushed for his loophole in the Energy Bill in 2005 as Vice President, ONLY because I inherently dislike anything that reeks of such conflict of interest between politicians and corporations (yeah yeah, i know, it's how it works).  Before I get ridiculed for being a left wing nut job democrat, I also believed Clinton made some wholesale mistakes for this country as well that we are paying for now.  I'm not a partisan person. I'm an issues person!

c) if everyone in my county and beyond seem to have gotten a letter of interest from Chesapeake, including my sweet little mom who only has 9 acres of land (?).  You'll have to forgive me if i'm incredibly protective of her and her best interests. She's my MOM!  =)

 

It's that last one, Tom, that leads me to believe the companies are fairly hungry for our area.  From what I understand, there are one or two wells being erected for some initial exploration, so it's not completely imminent, but it's also something a lot people are really hoping for....which is why I  I'm trying to get in front of the 8-ball here and do whatever I can to help keep our name out of the paper as an incident site, which requires some proactive thinking and questioning...and yes, perhaps some out-there requests. Isn't that how the art of negotiation works?  Come in high? 

Just as I can't ignore our need for alternative fuels (and the need to pump some juice into the economy), I also cannot ignore the newspaper stories about the human-error incidents occurring at a rate that, at least to me, is somehwat alarming.  I just want to be sure everyone is doing their due diligence so that when large-scale drilling does begin, we can ALL feel good about it!!

 

Thanks Tom.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Copley on March 2, 2011 at 11:39am

KSM-- Fine, toss the bathwater, but let's keep the baby. ;-) --Tom

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Permalink Reply by Sherry on March 2, 2011 at 11:28am

KSM,

I too have to admit I was a little taken aback by the "info" you first presented and, being my husband works in the industry, was tempted to type in a rather insulting response.  But what I see presenting itself is one of the better dialogues I have seen, clearing up misinformation and getting facts out there.

The first concern you mention, the news... well, would it sell newspapers and advertising space if the headlines read "nothing new happened in gas industry today"?  Of course not.  The media outlets KNOW any news about the industry is BIG news and if they have to spin it to get the readers/viewers, then so be it.  However, what lacks today in our media is true, investigative reporting, so one gets stories that haven't been researched adequately.  The media is JUST as guilty of perpetuating the misinformation as some extremist anti-drill groups, if only because of present day's lack of investigative journalism.

The headlines purposely lack perspective - take Sunday's NY Times expose' on the radiation levels found at wells and its relationship to contaminated drinking water.  And many times in our hurried world, we don't bother to read the entire article.   Within that article, the reporter admits THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP, but with no other data to compare the radiation to, takes an apples and oranges approach to it.  His reporting of the situation stops there-at the well head, instead of following up on the intake of water withdrawal facilities monitoring, or even the results of the monitoring stations set up in the Susquehanna River Basin to monitor just those kinds of levels - maps of which accompany the article!

So as far as the news goes, please remember to apply critical thinking skills and make sure all the dots connect within a story.  When numbers or percentages or other statistical information used, investigate what they actually portray (i.e. the number of infractions cited, what were the infractions for example?) There is always another extreme side to the bad news, and I have found the trick is to keep in mind, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

It should be up to each individual to decide - based on facts - what safe drilling means to them personally and decide to go from there.  There are real dangers associated with the the drilling and gas extraction process.  But the most productive plans of action can only be based on being well-informed and educated.

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Permalink Reply by Robin Jackson on March 2, 2011 at 5:01pm

Well done.

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Permalink Reply by Chuck Reed on March 2, 2011 at 8:51pm

stop spamming and take this to a letter from the editer.
Chances are you live in Calli' and you are kissing Josh Fox right now.

If in jewit, you mean northwest pa, you must be a transplant.  That's oil country and I'm guessing you are not very popular and don't get invited to parties. 

 

have a nice day.

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Permalink Reply by KSM on March 2, 2011 at 9:47pm

Well, I can see this is obviously a very passionate issue for everyone.  I was sincerely coming at this from the view of someone who is very interested in the prospects for Harrison County IN ADDITION TO voicing my concerns about the process and requesting that we do our best to ensure safeguards as a new industry gets welcomed into our neighborhoods. 

It is not clear to me why some simply want to throw out hateful words rather than simply address my concerns in a thoughtful way so that I too may be nothing but ECSTATIC, without any worry, about this. Dan Ellis, on the Harrison County board, responded in such an eloquent way that disarmed me and made me realize that there ARE people in the community, leaders within the landowners groups, WHO GET WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY and are being responsible by understanding that there are indeed several sides to this coin.  To dismiss one side altogether, the side that may be a little ugly, is completey irresponsible and is the kind of thing that makes a person like Josh Fox make a film about it...and make people who are against it go even farther away from it.   

Citizen concerns around this should not be considered SPAM.  Asking questions about how this whole relationship between landowner, corporation, and community should not be considered ANTI anything.  It's what we should all be doing! 

Many of the responses here justify my worst fear about some of this....that people don't want to engage in dialogue, not answer my specific questions about how this all works, provide me with the information I need to "re"educate me in a thoughtful way rather than simply saying "you are wrong". 

I love my home of Eastern Ohio.  If I lived in California why would I give a rat's ass about a little place like Harrison County? For real.  I'd just believe what everybody else does out there and say "who cares? they are just a bunch of undeducated rednecks that abuse their dogs."  They'd think It's ethnic cleansing if an industry came in to finally wipe it clean...oh, and they would care more about saving the dogs than you, to be sure. 

Here's the thing.  I've sat with sick family members in that cancer center in Steubenville, OH where the doctors cannot keep up with the demand.  Jefferson County Ohio has the highest rates of cancer in the state. We have been an industry loving people our whole lives and all I really expect is the industry to love us back.  I know a group of men that all worked in one part of the steel mill who all ended up with a form of brain cancer.  Coincidence? Many of my family and friends, like many others in that area, are/were coal miners.  My own father died from lung cancer.  These are the realities.  I'm not saying let's get rid of them, I'm saying let's do all we can as an enlightened community to ensure everyone's safety around this stuff.  As this becomes a "boom" in our areas, let's just be sure everyone is educated.  I'm not saying this WILL cause any health or environmental issues.  I'm saying they CAN.  As a result, we need to treat those sites and the areas surrounding them as industrial jobsites and not a flippin' playground for the kids or a place for the cattle to graze.  That's it.  I'm also coming at this from a perspective of wanting to know more in the event *I* decide to lease.   I've asked some specific questions here about how it works regarding replacement water and who bears the brunt of any accidents that occur within a certain perimeter of the site, not of company employees but of visitors on my land, along with some other pointed questions that no one has addressed yet. 

There is absolutely no other agenda being had here.

I don't want to end my visit here on this sour note from Mr. Reed, so I'll just keep re-reading Mr. Ellis' post so that I may retain hope that this will not be something we sprint into lightly.

Regards.

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