Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jack Young on August 27, 2015 at 2:10am

If nobody allows pipelines to cross their land, there will be no gas production. Anyone who just "says no" to a pipeline but is willing to collect royalties from the wells the pipelines serve becomes the classic "free rider" of economic theory. Society can work around a few of them, just as society can tolerate a small number of parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, but if that position becomes any more common the whole system breaks down.

Society needs infrastructure - road, pipelines, power lines, all manner of improvements that facilitate the services and supplies we all take for granted. If a person is willing to forego royalty income, use fuels other than oil and gas for cooking, heating, transportation and electrical generation and then decides to opt out of negotiating pipeline rights of way in good faith, I still find that unacceptable, but at least it's less hypocritical than what Mr. Ladd seems to be suggesting.

Permalink Reply by John Capwell on August 27, 2015 at 3:17am

Society does need infrastructure but at fair terms. Please do not tell someone that they are being a "free rider" because the agreements terms and payment are fair for society and unfair for the individual. A member of society does not need to bear a burden for society without fair and just compensation and protection.

Permalink Reply by Jack Young on August 27, 2015 at 3:53am

And what's fair is a two way street.

We have numerous pipelines crossing our properties, and hardly even notice them. As long as the company works with the landowner to route the pipeline around sensitive areas it isn't that big a deal. As someone with lots of real world experience in this matter I see your earlier post as scare-mongering, and that's not helpful to anyone. Just like suggesting they act as a free rider if they don't get exactly what they (you) want.

Compromise is important - on both sides.

Permalink Reply by John Capwell on August 27, 2015 at 5:58am

Jack: and I have real world experience in this issue too. I think we would be best served if you would point to specifics when "scare mongering" is suggested. As a rural land owner who has a pipeline across a portion of my land I am well aware of the pitfalls of the pipeline. And I did not interject the phrase"free rider".

Most landowners are not aware of the implications of a pipeline and what the long term issues are when a pipeline crosses their land. Not being aware of those issues handicaps the landowner and can lead to unpleasant surprises to current and future generations.

Permalink Reply by william Allen. Ladd on August 27, 2015 at 11:35am

Exactly so! This is why I posted this inquiry in the first place. Not knowing what to expect, I do not want to be surprised by an unfair contract. I also want my property that will be left to my son and grandson to not be cut up into unuseable sections. As it is, I believe that a small change in the routing to next to the line fences will solve part of my concerns. I also do not want to be  bamboozled into signing a ROW agreement that might be tore up and used  later for multipule pipelines being installed with no chance to have any input as to what is being transported, Or not to receive further income from additional pipelines that may be installed in this ROW.

There is a chance that another oil and or gas well may be drilled on my property sometime in the future after my wife and I am gone. I want to ensure that my son and grandson will have whatever income that may come from these possibilities,....   gas/oil or additional pipelines in the ROW. 

What I do today will affect my son and grandson in years to come.

I will work with the pipeline company but I do not intend to sign a blank sheet of paper for a few hundred or thousand dollars today with no thought of tomorrow and my offspring. Living and working here all of my 81 years and Dad and my grandparents and great grandparents worked too darn hard hanging on to this little piece of land and finally passing it down to me., to just give it away! 

Many folks simply do not understand. They only understand fattening their bank account. And to h... with the sacrifices made by early generations or the benefits to pass on to their offspring.

Bill L.

Permalink Reply by william Allen. Ladd on August 27, 2015 at 1:05pm

To Jack Young. My wife and I used to heat our home with gas as well as heating water with a new gas hot water heater. We also burned a little wood. But then in the summer months our gas bill did not reflect the fact that we used very little natural gas and only for cooking.  A hundred dollar plus monthly bill just to have a gas meter reader to drive in our drive way seemed a little much. I went out and told the meter reader to pull the gas meter as we no longer wanted to pay a hundred dollars every thirty days for him to drive a hundred feet down our driveway  to read the meter every month.  A month or so they finally understood what I was telling them. We paid all  the gas bills up to date. And then after removing the meter and locking the service pipe, a couple of men came to the house with what I called Sniffer sticks. I asked them what they were doing. They led me to believe that I had in some way tapped into their service line. I told them to bring in an excavator, dig the damn service line up back to the main line and not to come again!

I could easily get along without their gas for heating and cooking. No one ever came back and the service line is still in place. We heat with firewood and also have a heat exchanger for heating water attached to our outdoor furnace. We cook with firewood in winter and sometimes with electricity.

And yes I have cut all of our firewood until a couple of years  ago. And then even cut a goodly portion of our yearly heating fuel. This year will have to be my last year of wood cutting and splitting as I am four months shy of being 81 years old.

Oh yes and by the way there have been gas leaks in the main line on our property. One Sunday during a very heavy down pour a gas leak was discovered only a very few feet away from the house my parents. Calling it in was not effective immediately.  We have noticed the odor of gas for several weeks in the area. We insisted that someone come as we could see the gas bubbling up  thru the water from the rain. Someone finally did show up in rain gear and went to work. But it was more serious then it first appeared. Just as soon as the pipe appeared and he scraped away the dirt, a huge flake popped out opening up a hole perhaps two or more inches in diameter. An emergency call went out and two or three more men arrived with a fully loaded gas line repair truck a couple hours later. It was a three day weekend and very few men were on call.  And then another time I discover another very small leak in an exposed coupling which I also reported. Several months passed by before it was repaired.

So before you decide that I am as you put it, hypocritical.  Maybe you might consider my own experiences with the gas service and pipe line inspections.

Granted, we need infrastructure but these need to be safe and brought up to date when needed. How many pipe lines have burst unexpectedly because of too high a pressure or poor maintainence? Oil well spills, A gas well exploded up North fork road many years ago. A man had been doing something there, I do not recall what, but he was killed.....blown right out of his shoes! We do not need these kinds of things.

Bill L.

Permalink Reply by Jack Young on August 29, 2015 at 10:47am

All interesting comments - and a fascinating review of some of your personal experiences. But none of this is really relevant to my original point. You are clearly debating someone here, but it's not me.

Permalink Reply by william Allen. Ladd on August 30, 2015 at 1:46am

With all of the gaslines running across your properties as you mention Jack, do you know exactly what they are carrying? Do you know how long they have been there? Do you know what pressures they were built to handle? Do you know what pressures they handle today?

Supposing one of them (pipelines) should all of a sudden fail and a member of your family happen to be nearby and injured or worse, what would be your thoughts? Are you thinking that safety is not important?

Many years ago, an electric transformer needed to be replaced. It was already to be put online. The circuits were all check out and found to be in the proper position.

The transformer was activated and put on line.

Guess what happened?

Many homes went dark. TV sets were destroyed, Other household appliances were burned up and had to be replaced. Many families had their daily and important activities completely disrupted as well as work schedules.

That transformer had been hooked up so that the high voltage side and low voltage side were hooked up bassackward.

Now who do you think would have been or should have been held responsible for all of the damage?

Scare mongering my purpose? NO!  Trying to find out what I need to know about pipelines and what may be involved is my purpose here.

Anyway Thank you for your input!

Bill L.

Permalink Reply by Janice L. Hancharick on August 30, 2015 at 6:42am

Jack is very knowledgeable about many things related to O&G development plus its related services.  He owns multiple thousands of OGM AC across 20 counties, some are money-makers and some are still in the investment stage only.

What has been focused on in this thread is the need for protective addendums in ROW leases and safety-minded alternatives when things do go wrong. The same can be applied to OGM leasing.

Jack represents one kind of owner ... in it for the money and not particularly tied to the land.  All businesses need those willing to invest.  However while I believe a majority of folks across this region will certainly appreciate money coming in, they will even better appreciate land that will be minimally disturbed as much as possible, and then restored to agreed upon standards.

At this summer's DUG East Conference in Pittsburgh one more shale layer was touted as an up and comer ... already producing in over 25 PA counties in a layer above the Marcellus. The Burket has been in the picture for awhile but has recently drawn the public's attention to a much higher degree.  That's one more producing layer for our region and beyond, making pipelines that much more in demand. Land values are steadily increasing for OGM and Pipeline Leasing.

Bill you have done a real service to readers to post this subject. I believe most people are just as concerned as you about the future of the land and the generations to come.

Permalink Reply by william Allen. Ladd on August 30, 2015 at 8:40am

Please accept my apologies if I appeared to be twisting any one's chain a bit too tight. I have only a few years left at best. I  only want to leave my offspring the property in the best and in the safest condition as possible, just as it was left to me.  A few thousand extra dollars to leave them would be nice. But not if there is going to be dangerous condition that I can avoid right now by my choices.

Again, Thank you Janice and everyone who gave input to my inquiry

Bill L.

Permalink Reply by william Allen. Ladd on August 31, 2015 at 6:52am

We just talked to three men from the pipeline  people. They had just finished walking the proposed route as it might cross our property. The pipeline according to these men has been "CUT IN STONE". And will be across our ground.

However I did tell them that there has to be one change in their route. and that is it has to follow another line fence that parallels the one they are looking at.

This was not a formal meeting, just an incidental encounter at that the end of our driveway. A couple of possible facts we did not know came out however.

Bill L

Permalink Reply by 0ym9x5ag7ury2 on August 27, 2015 at 12:45pm

John,

   Well said in your ROW Detail Comments above.

I've read details of what a pipeline ROW should have in it, and don't remember seeing these items.

I'll put a copy of your info in with the other information to make an ideal ROW contract.

When a pipeline comes through I want to negotiate the fine details then have a lawyer I know in Columbus take over from there. He said that he would take 30% of any additional money he negotiates for me.

I'd like to keep his payment fair & reasonable by leaving very little for him to negotiate for me.

Thanks for the post John.  Ron Hale

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