Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Don on July 28, 2009 at 7:55am

Government incentives should be made. The DOE in its Prirmer on Shale Gas that came out in April, showed the Haynesville and the Marcellus tripling the lower 48 recoverable natural gas reserves from 247TCF as of 12/31/07 on the EIA (part of DOE) website to an additional 500+TCF from the Haynesville and the Marcellus.

In addition to easily helping the administration's meet its goals of less dependence on foreign oil and cleaner fuel, with an economically and technologically feasible source, just think what it could do favorable for the US balance of trade. More dollars staying in the US and re-circulating...

It is not only the smart thing to do it is the right thing to do.

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Permalink Reply by Craig on July 28, 2009 at 9:08am

Don,

You are right, it is the only right thing to do, but the infrastructure is not there, yet. In some areaas it is definitely available, but not widespread.

There is a company near me that converts vehicles, and the last I checked for converting my diesel truck, so that it would run on either diesel or CNG was $4500. Actually, I though that was relatively reasonable, since the truck is paid for and I can make my own methane (it burns relatively the same as NG) on my place, and if I were located in town, could set up my own filling station at my home off the gas lines that run throughout cities, but alas, I live too far out.

Right now, the senators from Iowa are trying to get the government to mandate building E85 vehicles, but nothing about CNG vehicles, which are actually more efficient, and the impact on the environment is less with CNG, for it takes an average of 76 gasllons of water to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol, and it takes almost 2 gallons of Ethanol to equal one gallon of gasoline in stored BTU's, yet, if one follows the money, it would mean more for the senators constituents if E85 was mandated, even though it (Ethanol) is more adverse environmentally when you figure in the cost of transport, oil for planting, harvest, urea for fertilizer, and the amount of water used to grow the crops and wash the alcohol out of the solution.

Also, have you seen the pictures of the oil wells in the Bakken formation in the Dakotas? In every picture I have seen, there is a large vent burning off the NG produced by the wells, and even though our Congress and Presidents (Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama) all talk about a comprehensive energy plan they won't get off their duff and implement one - they could use Immenent Domain to place pipelines, pass laws to circumvent necessary paths and get the gas to where it would do the most good - much as they do with toll roads, and lease the gas pipelines out for companies to manage and maintain while providing the united States with the currently waasted gas. In fact, in many areas of PA in years past, as well as recently, the gas has been vented/burned off to get the oil, since pipelines are so difficult to get permitted and in place.

I worked for a company in PA and we spent 16 months just getting permits approved for the pipeline, then another 12 months acquiring ROW, and then the state changed the rules and we had to re-permit. Still no pipeline, and the gas cannot be marketed from the wells. The States have a vested interest in getting the NG to market, even if they don't have a severance tax in place, but they need to see a way clear to assist compaies in transporting the gas from the field to the market. And then create the market with CNG incentives such as California, but I do not like MANDATES.

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Permalink Reply by Mmmarkkk on July 29, 2009 at 1:39am

Tell me more about how you make your methane? Intriguing.

Also, the reason methane burns a lot like NG is that NG is made up of 90-98% methane!

There are home-based CNG fill up machines that can be purchased today. They install in your garage, take gas from your home NG line, compress it and re-fill your CNG tank. I believe they are called FILL, but I'm not for sure. I'll try and find a link. But if you don't have gas piped to your home, it won't work out for you.

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Permalink Reply by Craig on July 29, 2009 at 2:48am

Living in the country and being a salesperson means there is a lot of BS laying around :). Building an inground methane generator is not difficult. Lay a concrete foundation, buildup the walls with block, fill those with concrete, lay a concrete top. There is a 4" hole in the side of the contraption that is capped, and is 12-18" below the top. There is a 6" pipe through side above this on opposite side also capped, and set at an angle. through the top, you set a "striring mechanism" and this is sealed using its own weight through different fittings and filling with concrete.

You fill the contraption with equal parts water, BS, and straw/grass, and wait, stirring occasionally. It is vented throu a pipe through the top, and an inner tube is attached, threby letting one know there is pressure built up and the methane can be gathered off.

After it begins generating well, every 3 days or so add 5 gal water, 5gal BS, 5 galstraw through 6" hole, and the excess will drain out 4" hole, and excess is great compost when dried.

Down and dirty, but you get the idea - it is a continuous batch system.

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Permalink Reply by Mmmarkkk on July 29, 2009 at 6:28am

Great home-brewed ultra natural gas!! I love it! And you probably didn't need to get an EPA permit or anything else! Of course, if you lived in New York, you would need 10 permits and have an inspector (for a low fee!) come out and give it the okay, but then pay taxes on all generated, then risk government regulation under Crap and Trade legislation!!!

They should be able to build some of these in Washington D.C.; there's a lot of B.S. floating around there too!!

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Permalink Reply by Craig on July 29, 2009 at 6:02pm

Right now it is generating enough to run stoves and gas powered freezers and refrigerators with plenty left over - I am working out the kinks to prevent O2 from getting in the system, but it functions - I am trying to find out how to make a home measuring device to determine MCF so I can determine what amounts of "recipe ingrediants" I would need to run vehicles/tractors off the thing.

I know in the dairy business in temperate climates they are using their waste to run batch systems (engineered and commercially manufactured systems) and producing enough electricity to run their entire farms off of it, as well as sell some back to the power companies - all incentive based/partially subsidized - I am not wanting to get the help from the government, because you are right, then they would find some way to tax it.

I have found that pig and chicken waste produce larger amounts of methane - this must have something to do with the greater amounts of nitrogen/nitrates, but man, that would be a lot of yard birds, and I don't like pigs (raising them I mean, but they do taste good). So, I use what is available, and I am going to try horse biscuits on a new generator - only because I heard in gardening circles that it was "hotter" (I assume more nitrogen) than BS, and I have 6 grass-burning horses already.

If it works out, then a small compressor and a few small tanks, and I am going to try it on a converted vehicle, all while assuming I can vent the gas if it doesn't burn properly.

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Permalink Reply by Mmmarkkk on July 30, 2009 at 2:48am

Good old U.S. Ingenuity!

I know of a lot of ways to measure the MCF's but they aren't on this scale and are costly. Maybe the simplest way would be to build a known volumetric container and measure pressure and temperature. Using the real gas law (PV=znRT) you could calculate the number of moles of gas. You would know V (volume of container), measure P and T; tables give you z for methane at certain temps and pressures, and R is a constant. Calculate n, then figure the volume at standard conditions for n moles of methane. Don't know how much you are making and the impact it might have on pressure, though. So you may be trying to measure some small changes in pressure; the precision of the gauge and your measurements of the volume of the container may give you too much inaccuracy to make this worthwhile.

1 MCF would fill one thousand cubic feet at 14.7 psia and 60 degrees F. Of course that's a container 10 feet high by 10 feet wide by 10 feet long. You'd be working in smaller dimesnsions than that!

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Permalink Reply by Joe McFerron on July 30, 2009 at 9:26am

I/ve been driving a CNG Honda since January. I LOVE IT! Runs great, very cheap to operate. I spend about $5 week for gas when my truck was running me $80 week. Just passed 8,000 miles and had my first oil change. Clean as a whistle. I will put my CNG Honda up against one of those stupid "Hybrids" anytime. I didn't pay a premium for the car, above cost of regular civic, and I got a $4,500 tax credit. I pay about $1.12 per gallon equivalent, and if I put the Phill system in at my house the price drops to about $0.45 per gallon. More than pays for itself everyday!

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Permalink Reply by Mmmarkkk on July 31, 2009 at 1:25am

Joe: approximately where are you located? State/County probably ok...just trying to get a read on availability of re-fueling stations! Where do you fill up your CNG tank? That's been the biggest issue for folks going forward. I know Utah has a pretty good network and some parts of Oklahoma. Houston used to have a few but they seem to be fewer and farther in between. Many are tied to either corporate fleets or municipal fleets.

I've been looking at the Phill system; seems like a pretty nice deal. Probably pay for itself over a few years plus the convenience factor!

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Permalink Reply by Craig on July 30, 2009 at 3:24pm

Thank you for the information - and you are right, 10x10x10 is, I think, much larger than I need right now, but I also need to determine, In MCF, what is a Gasoline Gallon Equivalent. I have found the measurment given in some articles, but will have to find that again.

I'll have to find a known container that I can fill and seal - I have several, but they are liquid fuel tanks so are vented by the cap, and the fixture is not one I can change over to a regular sealed pipe thread. Once I get that down, I will find a very good pressure gauge - the service companies here should have some, I just don't know how low they will go, but I am sure through them I can get a line on one.

Thanks again

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Permalink Reply by Mmmarkkk on July 31, 2009 at 1:28am

I wonder if you couldn't use a propane tank like the ones hooked up to B-B-Q pits? you'll have to fabricate some valving for it but it certainly is rated for gas service. The volume should be easy to find through a bit of research.

In Oklahoma, we've run many of our gas fields at vaccuum, so the pressure gauges should be available that will give you some precision.

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Permalink Reply by Brian Day on August 4, 2009 at 2:17pm

You might look into a refrigerant recovery bottle and a manifold guage set for servicing HVAC. Some are available on E-bay. Check out the price of a new one first though. People are bidding way too high on them in general. Good luck. Also the natural gas pressure"upwind" of a household gas meter is quite a bit higher than that down wind. This could fill a car gas tank much faster.

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