Title searching in PA
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tom Copley on
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Brian-- These are the kinds of things I need to know--"trips and traps". Thank you kindly for the response. --Tom
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Permalink Reply by Mike Flor on -
Tom, I title searched some property we own in NW Pa and it was orig owned by a coal company which bought multiple parcels that included surface and minerals and just mineral. Start with your title and look at the previous owner and just keep going backwards until hit about 100 years. You will be spending some time in the court house deed room. They will give access to the copier and you pay for number of pages you copy. Once you have it all copied take it home and do some reading. Some legal jargon you might have to look up..some of it is self explanatory. You can then take what you know and see an attorney who specializes in deed search to confirm your findings. Its not that hard..just alot time in the court-house. These days you have bang elbows with the landman doing the same thing. Good Luck.....
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Permalink Reply by Peter Pagano on
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Tom,
I've read that minerals,oil,gas, coal and other rights began being seperated in PA sometime after the civil war. My title search Co. went back to 1850 just to be safe. Also in PA the term minerals does not include oil, coal and gas.
You will need to start with the current deed reference and trace it back, each deed should reference the previous deed by book and page number. Read each one carefully and pay particular attention to reservations. I'm under the impression however that the oil/gas rights may have been split off as a seperate deed and sold without creating a new deed for the surface rights. In that case check out the name index. My county has one called an RSTLN index or something like that where they enter the names by the first non vowel/non rstln letter to avoid issues with mispellings. Then check each previous owner to make sure they did not seperately sell off the oil/gas rights.
You will also need to look for active/expired leases on the property. I'm not sure how to do that, but the folks that work there should be able to help you. You may beable to accomplish some of the search, through LANDEX's web site.
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Permalink Reply by Nancy Mosley on
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I am doing this over the phone in Ritchie County WV. Very helpful people there, looking up in the index.
We (sis and I) own (inherited) primarily oil and gas (or OGM) rights. In tracing things back, it is interesting to see how some surface owners who also own 1/2 OGM start selling all the OGM along the line.
I had only been going about to 1890 but think I'd better go further back. I want to do all I can via phone before I have to make a trip (out of state) to the court house.
About looking up leases: check all the oil and gas owners' names for any leases they did, then check for lease assignments. Not all will be recorded. If lucky you'll find a release (of the lease) recorded when the lease expired. It is a lot of work but necessary.
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Permalink Reply by Ed MYers on
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Tom,
When I purchased my land 50 plus years ago the owner held the mineral,gas and oil rights. About 4 years later I bought the Mineral rights on a county tax sale. No question I own Mineral rights. When I bought them did gas and oil go along with tax sale? I am told in Pa. there is no tax on gas and oil rights. Gas co. will not pay me for the lease. They say there is a question on who owns the gas and oil rights. I may have to go to court to find out. My lawyer is waiting for my answer. Do you have any thoughts? I do have a "Waranted Deed" [excuse spelling} ED
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Permalink Reply by Nancy Mosley on
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Have you gone back in courthouse documents to see where the prior owner purchased the land and oil, gas, and minerals? See if he really had them ot sell. Then go forward from when you bought the surface and see if that owner sold oil and gas rights, or signed any leases. And ask your courthouse if they keep up at all with royalty owners. That is a good thing about West Virginia: there is county property tax on oil, gas and mineral ownership so the owners are more likely to be discoverable.
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Ed-- I'm not an attorney, so have no specific thoughts. There is often a better outcome when landowners try to work with the gas companies, recognizing, of course, that the interests of the owners and the companies are sometimes quite different. I'd try to figure the company's attitude out and where they're coming from. Their viewpoint obviously makes sense to them. Once a suit gets started up, it locks everyone into an adversarial relationship, and then it really gets difficult to get any information. --Tom
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Permalink Reply by Ed MYers on
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Tom- The gas co. is getting very hard nosed with me. I can see their point. They will tell me nothing. They say everthing is confidential. I hae learned not to trust any of the gas co. They are liars and crooks. They will deceive you in ever thing they say. My advice to every one dealing with them is to turn it over to one of the many lawyers in the area.
I own about 53 acres we are talking about. It was a parcel two of us bought about 55 years ago. The owner held the Mineral, gas and oil rights in the sale. We then split the acres{106} Each owning 53. Later we both bought the Mineral rights on a tax sale. Two and one half years ago the present owner, grandson of my former partner, signed with Range. He had the same problem I am having. With out going to court his attorney supplied Range with "Proof he owned the G&O." Since then Anadarko has bought up all leases in the township. Question --" If they bought his lease from Range are they saying he is the owner?" I say if he owns his, I own Mine. If I don't own mine he does not own his.
I am trying to contact Range for information on the lease they had or have on the land that was in the original deed.
Thanks for the replys I have received. ED MYERS
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Permalink Reply by FXEF on
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Ed,
I understand what you are saying, that if he owns his, I own mine, however you will have to run title on the minerals you bought at the tax sale to prove you actually own the O&G rights. That's probably what the other owner did.
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Ed-- Sounds like a mess, but can understand what you're saying. I don't believe the cos. are all crooks and liars. In fact there are some pretty good people who work there, but their interest is simply different than yours, so it may cause them to reach a very different conclusion that is difficult to make sense of. Can appreciate your frustration! --Tom
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Permalink Reply by Ed MYers on
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Tom.
The land men and ROW people I met were fine and came over good. Their bosses pulled stuff afterwards that I know the Land and ROW people did not know, they were being used. I told Anadarko out right that they used me and that I did not trust them. You head about what Chesapeke pulled on the 94 year old women in a home?. Signing her for $50 per acrea. When it got out it was upped to $8000 and 20% I know I can't spell. No spell check here.
Hope to get better news to you shortly.
Ed
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