Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jake Jackson on November 5, 2011 at 10:38am

I am curious as to where you are that you have the NEW "slick water, horizontal deep well fracturing" wells all around you?

The problems I have shown are not limited to Bradford County PA. The are in Sullivan, Washington, Butler, Tiaoga, everywhere drilling is occurring.  This is not the same shallow wells we are used to that are scattered all over Ohio and PA. This is a different process all together.  I too want to believe that this would be the solution to our problems with energy but the way it is being done right now it is far more a hinderance than a benefit. And the negatives are falling on us, the tax payers.  Not the corporations raking in the billions.

Yes, some of us enjoy our clean burning natural gas to heat our homes.  I don't discredit that.  It's the extraction process i have a problem with.  America used to be the "can do" nation.  There are safer ways to get the gas but the profits wouldn't be as great. As the Marcellus Coalition said in the PA EPA hearings "we would like to comply with the clean air standards, but it will take time and money for us to get there.  It is unfair to put these regulations on now without giving us time to implement." K.Klaber

Now wouldn't it have been nice and considerate of the industry to have had those in place before they started drilling since they know of the damage it does from many, many law suites in TX, CO, WY that are all suing because of air quality issues. 

Please don't judge that I am spreading mis information. These are all unfortunate facts that are being reported because THIS ONE INDUSTRY has been given special treatment and deregulated in 2005 for a reason.  SO they could make as much money as possible.

The same faulty well casings used in the Gluf Oil spill are the same that are being used for hydro fracking. When the industry says "there is not one water source that has been contaminated from the fracking process" what they mean is the fracking process.  Not the well casing that is leaking, or the spills that seem to occur on a daily basis.

 If this was an industry that was meant for the good of the nation they would have fixed the problem first, not be afraid to abide to regulations that were put into place to protect the citizens living where the industry is operating.  THEY were de-regulated because they knew they would fail if they had to comply with clean air, clean water and the superfund acts.  They would have to spend too much of their profits....

It's plain and simple greed that is fueling this industry.  They are taking full advantage of the economic and unemployment situation and we are the ones who will suffer in the long run.  Those cashing in will be left with property that is worthless, and we will have no clean air to breath, clean water to drink but we will be able to stay in our warm, homes heated by natural gas. 

Please do your research and see that i am not trying to mislead the public, just make sure the bases are covered before, not after the fact.  If we can put men on the moon, it's hard for me to believe that there isn't a safer way to extract the gas then this way where 3 in 5 wells in PA have had major violations and problems.

http://www.marcellus-shale.us/water.htm

Those odds are not what I would like to bet the future of my children on.  

Also, take a good look at the solar energy being produced in Germany..... if they can do it so can we.  Or is it that we are more greedy and not concerned about safety, only profits?  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/04/AR2...

 

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Permalink Reply by craig on November 5, 2011 at 3:57pm

Jake, I am so tired of the statement "Those cashing in will be left with property that is worthless". The answer I always state is : When your property becomes worthless, give me a call, i'll be happy to buy it from you for next to nothing. Heck the taxes sure won't be very much since it isn't worth anything.

I have to admit though, this is a good scare tactic to bring more uninformed folks to the anti anything fold.  Fear has a tenacious grip and causes a tendency to over react to situations. Similar to the fear that the gas companies use to get some folks to sign.

For God's sake people, use your own brain to sift through all the misinformation on both sides that is out there.

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Permalink Reply by Jake Jackson on November 5, 2011 at 10:43am

You are so right Katherine.  It's like the auto industry. American car sales went down when more efficient ones were being sold here from other countries.  Did we listen, no we built Hummers for the public. Something tells me all these solutions were planned and put into place to make us believe we need this industry to do what they are doing.  When all we really need is for them to do their job right and for us to think about our consumption.

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Permalink Reply by craig on November 5, 2011 at 4:10pm

Cars are a completely different animal. It is like comparing lemons to oranges in this case. Consumers want the vehicle that they want, not what someone tells them to buy. When fuel prices spike, consumers move towards fuel efficient cars, when the fuel price declines consumers want their trucks, suv's, etc. Right now is evidence of this and the price of fuel really hasn't declined much....The automakers just released last months sales figures, and guess what....They are once again selling more and more trucks and suvs. This has been proven time and again, over decades. If the automakers don't make the cars that people want, when they want them, they will be out of business. They used to do their best estimate of what we want and then make them. That is why all auto manufactures now, or soon to come, have the whole spectrum of vehicles to sell so they don't miss out on the future sales, whatever kind of vehicle it may be. 

 

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Permalink Reply by Barbara on November 2, 2011 at 9:44am

i suggest you research the nat gas fields in the west...colorado for one.  you will see then what this can all look like in a few years.  try a town called, 'silt' in colorado.

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Permalink Reply by craig on November 2, 2011 at 10:07am

Babara,

I just took a look into the 'problems' in Silt Colorado. First off, every one of those claims dates back at least 5 years and upon further reading you will find that the practices that they used then are not being used now, and most haven't been used in our area for at least 2 years. IF in fact the old practices were causing problems, they won't anymore. 

Health is a tricky issue, especially when actual facts and data are mostly not there to support the conclusions these folks are making. It is easy to claim something did this to me. I'm sure there are folks that have been affected by drilling, that just makes sense... regardless of what industry you talk about.

That being said, please don't equate what you read from 4-5 yrs ago with what is transpiring now. As fast as drilling technology is jumping forward every year that would be like comparing our current transportation system to horse and buggy days.

Be reponsible drilling and hold these companies feet to the fire on issues that truly do need discussed. Don't dredge up old problems, or problems that don't exist, and planting them on todays companies.... all will be good. 

 

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Permalink Reply by Barbara on November 2, 2011 at 2:52pm

i  look upon some of the older information for it's value as to what happens down the road.......yes, you say the tech is changing...and i hope is truly safer...but those people were also told that the technology was up to date and safe.  i do not want to find out in five years or twenty that this or that has comtaminated/infected/harmed and just find a 'sorry' for a response. 

we MUST hold feet to fire...and beyond in terms of REAL and unbiased research NOW ....but we don't seem to have the expertise or manpower or will of the voters  to put such in place.  the DEP has fallen pretty flat on a number of 'accident's; a ten thousand dollar fine isn't even pocket change to these companies...so i don't think fining is worth a whole lot.  '

you have great trust in the industry and its 'improvements'.....which is fine by me...i just wonder where you get information and from whom that makes you so confident that we are not being lied to/hoodwinked as every other population everywhere the energy companies are busy always have been.  the processes are ALWAYS said to be 'safe' 'no problem'.

  the impoundment ponds built all around still have their vinyl liners.......same ones they started with a few years ago.  so what if now things are  done differently?  those things still sit full of frack water.  the liners only get older to potentially leak as they deteriorate.  see my point?  playing catch up with wrong/mistaken/misunderstood processes just doesn't do it. 

sooooooooooooo slow down and put the cart back behind the horse.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan A Jones on November 3, 2011 at 4:23pm

Range Resources will start drilling in our area in the next 12 - 18 months.  They initially (months ago) told us that the water reclamation pond would be temporary  (a few months) while they drill their first well.  At this last meeting they told us the pond could be in place for as many as three years because they plan to drill multiple wells one right after the other.

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Permalink Reply by Barbara on November 3, 2011 at 10:20pm

there are two 'ponds' near me now....each within a mile of me....one is maybe three years now or close to it, the other over a year.  these were two of the newer ones that i know about, but many others were built before that.  this is only my knowledge because i haven't gone looking for them. but i know of no earlier ponds being reclaimed.  when i was approached for an underground waterline to carry 'fresh water'....which i was able to have the landman admit was frack water with four chemicals removed at the well....but 'fresh' to their definition....between these two ponds, no mention was made of rapid reclamation.  no mention of reclamation at all.  and the water line was certainly to be a long term installation to supply water whenever needed 'to keep the trucks off the roads' in this area.  not temporary. 

i'm sorry to not have details/dates/companies....but a year or so ago, after a spill of...maybe it was diesel fuel and not frack water?...in the canton area the fine was next to nothing.  yes, the big pond breaking was a larger fine, the largest i had seen imposed in this area, and notable for its size compared to most others.

the Elmira Star Gazette and the Towand Daily Review plus Northeast Driller all have loca coverage of activity here 

 

www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-03/shale-gas-r    has a very comprehensive look at the industry at present.

and i do apologize for all vagueness...

i also have a friend nearby who farms and 'discovered' the over land water line on his land spewing water with such force that it looked like a fountain as he happened to drive past a pasture of his.  the company had no idea there was a leak, no idea how long leaking, and no idea how many gallons may have leaked.  the DEP came with no means to test the ground or sample it, even, nor for the small stream nearby.  two of this farmer's calves which had been in the pasture with the leak died....but toxicology failed to show a cause, though no other cause was found, either.  of note by me....the calves were necropsied at state university......this school  has had a lot of funding by the gas industry. he wishes he had taken them to cornell...just for that extra assurance.  at any rate, a lot of water flowed into his pasture; some sitting, some into stream; DEP did essentially nothing to test for residual elements from the frack water; and the company had no monitoring systems in place to in anyway know about a leak in any form or amount. 

i do not know the current rules right here about the ponds; i only know that they ARE here, have been for some time now, DO contain frack water, not 'fresh water' as you or i might define this; several wells still scheduled to be drilled in immediate area so no reason to end the ponds any time soon; they each cover several acres, and are sourrounded by high chain link fence with razor wire...;'so no one falls in and gets hurt', according to the landman. asked by me, by the way, if, since this is 'fresh water', could i go to get a sample....oh no, that wouldn't be allowed.  and, oh, he would not himself drink it.

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Permalink Reply by Barbara on November 4, 2011 at 5:39am

you have no idea, drill baby, how resistant the people here are to ANY government involvement in ANYTHING................no zoning, no regs, no 'interfering' in anyway to one's right to do what one wants with one's own land................................................and , it seems, to heck with whom else that 'doing' migh impact neighbor's own rights on their land.  period. i am finding this very frustrating, and irrational, really, with all that is going on.  bradford county is a very rural county with many people here who have lived here for many generations.  moving from that original independent mindset seems very difficult for most, even if the rest of the world has/is changing and IS interdependent.

i agree with your suggestions; this IS the logical next step, to my thinking; but the people have just elected to office the very people..governor, for example...who are block any attempts at safety or regulation in any form.  and THEY are the ones who have crippled the DEA so thoroughly. 

Permalink Reply by Jake Jackson on November 5, 2011 at 11:09am

http://www.marcellus-shale.us/MarkWest_Cryogenic.htm

Permalink Reply by Jim Litwinowicz on November 5, 2011 at 11:24am

governor, for example...who are block any attempts at safety or regulation in any form.

 

Sorry Barbara but I must call BS on your last post. The governor formed a Shale Commission that gave extensive recommendations that are already being introduced as law. Many regs have been tightened before the Shale Commission reported its findings. Permit fees and fines have been increased. They are also proposing  levying impact fees to aid the communities that must deal with the cost of enforcement. DEP has doubled their staff in two years.  It was the governor that stopped the practice of allowing frac water to be treated by municipal sewer treatment plants.

Doesn't seem to be a block of safety or regulation of any form to me.....

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