Propane powered vehicles

Okay here is a bit of crazy thought, mostly in the form of questions.  I have very little knowledge in these areas, so I am only opening up the dialogue.  There apparently is a growing glut of wet gas, of which propane is a large component.  Propane powered vehicles have been around for a long time.  Forklifts and many other vehicles are currently powered by propane.  Propane has a higher btu potential than methane.  An infastructure for the shipping and sale of propane already exists.  My occupation is heating and air conditioning in Wyoming where a large number of customers burn propane to heat their homes.  The conversion of a natural gas/methane furnace to propane is relatively simple; orifaces are changed, pressure is adjusted, and a small modification is done to the gas valve.  Why couldn't new vehicles to be sold now to run on natural gas be temporarily converted to burn propane while the infastructure to market natural gas is still under construction?  ( The technology and conversion kits are already available to convert older vehicles)Would there be enough savings at the pump?  Is ther really enough of a wet gas glut?  Could some of the surplus ethane be used to enhance or boost the power of the propane?  Would this accelerate the common use of domestic natural gas/propane products to the general public, perhaps condition them to its use more rapidly?  I look forward to hearing some answers.

Views: 890

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Elnathan Cory on January 21, 2013 at 3:55am

Propane vehicles use a tank that is filled with liquefied propane that vaporizes at the point of mixing with air prior to combustion. The tank pressures are relatively low compared to liquefied natural gas. It probably is not possible to use the same tank. Lots of money to change! I doubt the two systems are compatible. I don't rule out the manufacture of a dual system but that would depend on the market. Great idea though. I used to work for Norgas and we installed dual fuel systems that used gasoline and propane but the propane system was a separate entity.(own tank, lines, carb etc.). In any case propane and natural gas are way cleaner and require way less maintenance than gasoline.

Permalink Reply by Brian Day on January 21, 2013 at 4:08am

Thanks for the response.  You speak of liquified natural gas, but not compressed natural gas.  would the later fuel make a difference?

Permalink Reply by craig on January 21, 2013 at 4:19am

Brian, of course you also have to take into consideration the gov't red tape involved in getting vehicles approved by the EPA to use propane. This would be the same BS that one has to go through for CNG or LNG. Getting our gov't out of the way would be the best thing to happen and we all know that isn't going to happen in our life time, or ever i suspect.

Permalink Reply by Brian Day on January 21, 2013 at 4:45am

I'm not sure there is red tape for propane.  Last I knew many people were actually doing it, but I may be missinformed.  I had some more thoughts about the tank problem.  If a manufacturer was going to sell a propane powered vehicle which was to run on compressed natural gas in the future, that vehicle should be fitted with a strong enough tank for compressed natural gas.  such a tank should be plenty strong enough for LP.  Now there may be more to it than that.  Tanks to transprot liquid may require baffles or other design differences making them unsuitable for gas transport, or visa versa.  I am not enough of a gear head or engineer to answer that question.

Permalink Reply by Elnathan Cory on January 21, 2013 at 3:44pm

Compressed natural gas probably could use the same tank but the systems would no doubt be different. I am not sure at this time if there is a market.

Permalink Reply by craig on January 21, 2013 at 6:25pm

In Pa the deal is that any vehicle built before 1973 (unless it has changed recently) can be converted to propane,cng,or png without any EPA certification or emissions testing. Any newer vehicle needs to be an EPA certified engine conversion. There is a list somewhere of all the vehicles/engines that have been approved for the conversion. It is not a long list. I don't think you can do it yourself legally, but maybe using a certified kit you can on either a pre '74 vehicle or on an approved engine in a newer model. 

This is the latest info that I have on the subject, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Permalink Reply by Elnathan Cory on January 21, 2013 at 3:50pm

I really dont think "getting govt out of the way" is such a smart idea when it comes to DOT inspections of fuel tank manufacturing. Currently there are numerous companies that manufacture CNG kits for cars that are DOT approved. I really don't want to be on the same highway as a vehicle that some hillbilly rigged up to run CNG with some home made fuel tank. Maybe govt should get out of the way and let you build your own roads too!

Permalink Reply by craig on January 21, 2013 at 6:32pm

Elnathan, it is obvious by the lack of EPA action about this subject  that they don't want natural gas going mainstream. I don't believe anyone would want to stop the equipment approvel and testing.

The point you don't seem to know is that you can't just convert ANY vehicle engine combination. Each engine itself must under go major testing which is very expensive, before it can be certified to be converted. That is what inflates the cost of having a conversion done ( or the cost of the kit) on an approved engine. The EPA knows that natural gas and propane produce dramatically lower emissions, however they still demand that all this expensive testing take place for emission purposes. So yes, Get them the heck out of the way!

Permalink Reply by Elnathan Cory on January 22, 2013 at 4:36am

There are CNG kits for all cars! How is the "GOVT" in the way? . All approved and ready for you to purchase, install or have installed! Honda sells a CNG civic ready for you to buy!

Permalink Reply by Dan on January 22, 2013 at 4:55am

Isn't your fine Governor in PA taking the drilling impact fees and redistributing that wealth subsidizing 1/2 the cost of CNG conversions up to $25,000 a pop.  That seems pretty darn helpful to me.

Permalink Reply by Elnathan Cory on January 22, 2013 at 3:48pm

No, the money collected from the impact fees goes to the communities supossedly affected by the drilling not to the welfare bums in other parts of the state like in "Blowhio" home of socialist gov Gaysick. LOL

Permalink Reply by Dan on January 22, 2013 at 4:14am

Brian,

I have shared most of the same questions.  In the late 60's or early 70's  my folks took us to Disney World.  Disney had just converted their trams that shuttled guests from the parking lot to the gates to propane.  The tram guide explained as we traveled to the gates that propane was a waste gas that previously had been burned off during NG production and would soon be used to power transportation across the US.  In 1977 my dad ordered a new Chevy Suburban with a 454 V8 (fastest stock production vehicle made in the US that year).  The Suburban could be ordered from the factory set up to burn gasoline or propane.  The coversion then was just a extra throttle body that bolted on top of the carb.  By the late 70's early 80's the Gas and newspaper trucks in the greater Pittsburgh and Wheeling areas had converted to propane.  As I recall the propane tank was not extremly large.  A few weeks ago we sold our car to a fellow that came out to buy it in a converted CNG extra long 1 ton work van.  He had bought it used allready converted but said the conversion was pretty simple, still a throttle body that dumps the CNG in the air, with a chip that fooled the computer that the fuel injectors were firing as normal.  He said it worked great and was easy to maintain.  What surprised me was the CNG fuel tanks, they were about 4' tall and 18" round.  Three upright behind the driver and passenger seats that straddled the width of the van.  One tank laid across the floor of the van behind the driver parallel with the lenth of the van, with two more underneath the van.  I don't know if this is a typical tank configuration but this was a big van and still had plenty of room but if you need six tanks for a one ton pick-up truck, you would have to pull a trailer to haul any cargo.  It might be easier to haul a 250 gallon propane tank?  I feared when the cash for clunkers program was started that the real intent was to keep us from having easy access to big block engines that could easily convert to propane or NG.  Those old engines could have powered sawmills, generators, pumps, tugs and various shops and ran for decades to come.  I guess the folks in the know think we should wait for the Chinese Chevys and Dodges equiped with CNG from the factory  

RSS

© 2024   Created by Keith Mauck (Site Publisher).   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service