Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mickgyver on October 16, 2011 at 1:23pm

Yes Finnbear , I agree,that is a good point that is why I said I probably forgot something or left something out , I was hoping for few more good points to be added , 

I was just trying to pass a little info on to the ones in that area as it sounds like they are just getting into the deals there now .  I was only looking at the easy way some deals are written that allow them to walk away scott free and do the cherry picking .

This was my main concern in those that may accept the flippers leases .

I was told some of the wishgard leases were not paid and there was nothing at all given to the landowners who were held up for the long title check period . The deal would absolutely have been better if specifically written to complete the legal lease after the title checked out or be a subject of breach of contract.  That was why I did specify a good attorney at the start of the first related post .

Another point I failed to mention ,a lot of legal documents and deals in Ohio have a 3 day right to rescission for a person to back out of a contract , as I understand I don't think a person can use this law in the case of an oil and gas lease .

I know I saw someone comment a lease could be done without an attorney involved . That might be able to be  be accomplished, but the whole addendum list would have to be made, to over ride every clause in the company lease to be protected in all cases I would think.

Sadly some of the company leases allow them to walk away and pay nothing while tying the landowner up so long when they could have leased to another in that time frame

Permalink Reply by Finnbear on October 16, 2011 at 8:32am

If you WANTED to get your property involved with Wishgard then you are a bigger sucker than you realize. Organizations like that use people like you and refer to them as "useful idiots". They are NOT a friend of the landowner. They are a high pressure marketing organization that pushes uninformed landowners into lease marketing agreements that they should/will later regret if and when they finally wake up. Take a Wishgard lease to a competent attorney who knows the ins and outs of the recent oil and gas business here in OH and he will tear that lease to shreds when doing an analysis of it. Combine that with the 1% royalty interest they take in the leases they obtain and they look even worse. Consider the lies they told about "all the big oil and gas companies making one last push to lease, so sign now before they leave forever" and it is revealed just what they are up to. Pay VERY close attention to what they tell you each time you have contact with them. Watch the story change slightly each time you talk to them and compare the stories with what they actually put in writing. Then decide for yourself if you trust people like that to do a 6 or 7 figure business deal with that will probably last for the rest of your life and possibly your children and grandchildren.

Permalink Reply by Mickgyver on October 16, 2011 at 1:34pm

Tell it like it is , Ill second the motion

Permalink Reply by Finnbear on October 16, 2011 at 2:10pm

You and I have seen it with our neighbors. I hate to see anyone else fall for their presentation and I'm sure you do too.

They are fairly convincing if you don't know a lot about the oil and gas business. My brother and I share ownership of our Belmont acreage with our parents and Dad was ready to go sign with them last fall until my brother and I told him no way we were throwing in until we knew what we were dealing with. Every time we heard anything from W*******, the story seemed to change and what they would put in writing didn't match up with what they said in person. That threw up the red flags for me and I decided nearly a year ago that I had to find a better way.

Permalink Reply by Mickgyver on October 16, 2011 at 3:27pm

Yes Finnbear it is a sad day when some fail to tell the truth even when confronted with an eye witness observation .

I personally know the meeting I was in with wishgard in my estimation was  not upfront and without pressure to sign  .

But maybe this was just my slanted way of thinking  and I know it was my choice to sign or not to sign ,but with information passed on as it was, what is a poor dumb farmer to do when you think you are being told the truth .

At the meeting they said we had no Marcellus so we won't get near the bonus money Pa did . I figured the term  (Upfront) would have been to go on to say , but you only have about 90 feet or so of the Marcellus  here in Belmont County, but you landowners do have this very good WET GAS  that makes your area very desirable to the oil companies .

Then my estimation of the term (No pressure) does that mean that when it is said the companies said they  won't be back to pick up any of the 50 and 60 acre parcels, and we are only going to sign up people  for a few more days  / This won't make you feel pressure or worry right ?

This type of rebuttal as above posted ,when the truth is presented in print about some of what wishgard has done is not only a sign of failure to admit you were wrong , but it is also a sign that a person has no self respect for their own values  .

It is a sad thing when you cannot admit you are wrong about some of the things that have been said when you know they are true .

  I personally can respect someone who is man enough or woman enough  to admit that they are wrong or at least that they are unaware that these things that go on in some of the various meetings that have been presented that they did not attend .

Doesn't integrity begin with the solid value that you cannot be swayed or corrupted because of your strict moral compass , by keeping the ethical belief that you will always be honestt and forthright in all of your dealings .

One cannot be both and stand for the wrongly passed on information that we know to be true .

I said before this could have been done with honesty and truly showing the care the good lord says we should show for our fellow man . I will be able to sleep at night knowing I have tried my best to pass on what I feel is true so others can feel more comfortable with the decision that is ultimately their own .

But at least it will be a more informed one if people are willing to step up and expose the lies and half truths that have been used to con and rob from those who are easily swayed when their need for money overwhelms them just briefly enough to cause them a long term headache. 

And I will admit in a hurry when I am proven wrong ,that is why I am very cautious with what I say  .As always good luck to all

Permalink Reply by James Kerns on October 17, 2011 at 11:35am

Mr. Thomas, Thank you for your honest  and heartfelt evaluation of the overall situation as you see it. Many of your comments as stated ring true and i would like to respond to the others.

Yes, its true that the general public does seem in many ways to be unaware of the energy debate and latest news concerning the oil and gas shale development. Despite the efforts of many, including myself and many others who use this site, many people just have shown little interest. You can lead a horse to water, as they say.

Yes, the lease offers in these northern areas have been ridiculously low and many have accepted them because compared to the prices paid for the wells drilled in the Clinton Sands and the Berea, the prices now offered are very good. As this Shale is further developed the prices offered will surely go up as they suspect, based on all available information we are in a wet gas zone.

Yes, being a landman can be tough, as can any sales job, or customer service for that matter. Kind of like damned if you do, damned if you don't,right. But good commissions and overrides go with that so cheer up.

No, i did not disparage your name in any way on this site or anywhere else. I am not that kind of man. If i have a problem with someone i will not air it in a public forum or on the phone. I will deal with the issue, face to face.

My agenda using this site has been clear from the get go, and i do not need to comment further on it, other than to say my only gain is in signing a good lease on my land. I could easily gain employment again in the O&G industry and further line my nest from this new shale play, but i made a choice long ago about the industry as it was then, and how they treated the landowners and the environment, and decided the care of trees and farming was the path for me. 

The actions by those representing themselves as leasing agents are the only people embarrassing themselves by engaging in this kind of banter with the other landowners who contribute on this site. We have been utilizing this site as intended, it is not designed to be a lead generation and sales tool for landmen. If you choose to enter here, i suggest you be prepared to be honest, transparent, and prepared to show us the lease agreements in the open, so that we can make educated decisions about the different O&G company and their agents. If that is asking too much, kindly leave.

 As far as your sparkling reputation as a logger, well let me say this, in addition to having an expensive and currently underutilized college education as a Petroleum Engineer and in Petroleum Geology, and also as well as having worked in the past with three of the area O&G company's in my youth. I have had a successful and profitable twenty year career as an Arborist, yes i spent twenty odd years pulling my skinny **s up and down trees, and all over trees, pruning, cabling, treating them for disease and pest management, and removing trees, actually specializing in the removal of large dead and dangerous trees with and without the use of a crane, in residential and commercial area's, so do you really want to discuss what an Arborist thinks of Ohio and West Virginia's logging industry? Kerns Tree Service served select customer's in a six county area for a decade and i could fill large halls with people that would speak well of me so lets not start measuring our private bits here, OK.

It is probably best if you and others who conduct themselves likewise sign off here and leave us to our business. I have said it before, when acting in a sales and consulting capacity those who are verbally combative with the public have already lost in the game of public opinion, and have little to gain here as a result. Good Day and Best of Luck to you sir.

Permalink Reply by Adam Thomas on October 16, 2011 at 1:10pm

Tom, 

I would like to know the basis for your rediculous name calling.  I am nothing of the sort and there are tons of beople throughout Ashtabula, Trumbull, and Geauga counties that will attest to that.  I did not come onto to this website until my personal name was put on hear by Mr. Kerns.  You do not know who I am or have ever had any business dealings with me.  So you have no basis for such kindergarten behavior.  For those that are interested, you may ask around the industry that I have been in for almost 17 years.  You will find that any reputable source will tell you that I am a man of great integrety.  I was the president of an archery club in pennsylvania for thee years and I am the vice chairman of the North East Ohio Logger's Chapter.  Next year I will be the chairman.  I was nominated into that position by the very people in the timber industry that I compete against every day.  They are involved in the industry and all believe that there is a need to have such an organization to seperate the reputable companies from the land butchers that are out there riping people off and destroying people's property.  I was nominated and voted into that office because of the honesty and integrity that I bring to the industry.  The chapter is a division of the Ohio Forestry Association and we work together to educate and assist landowners on how proper managementand harvesting techniques benefits there property and investment.  You have to be a member of the chapter and attend training to be able to harvest timber that is receiving tax breaks through the forestry program under the Ohio Forest Tax Law.  We are the best because we hold ourselves to a higher standard. 

As to the address of my property,  quite honestly, I will make it short/sweet.  It is none of your business.

The company I worked for owned the property in Monroe county.  They were able to get into the Belmmont county group because their property is just across the county line and we did receive $1840 an acre.  We did lease it with wishgard and are very satified with our deal.  The thing most people failo to realize is that ALL the offers that are out there at any given time are based off the information that is available at that time.  There was a time that the oil companies were afraid of Monroe county and the offer was an entirely "speculative" price of $1600.00 per acre.  Once a test hole went in that removed the fear that it was not going to be good than the offers went up.  I know in portions of it there is offers of $3000 an acre.  We took the quicker money and were fully aware of the risk either way.  Fortunately for those that held out in that area, the information that came into existance was positive for them.  However if the info was not than we would have got our money and they would have got $0.  The people that gamble and win tell anybody that listens.  Those that gambled and lost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars tell nobody!!!  That is why you don't hear too many of those stories.  Those people are real quiet about their decisions.

The exact same thing (leasing boom) happened in Northern Michigan last year and in many different areas in the marcellous play. The Utica will be no different.  There will be good areas and bad areas.  I hope that everybody that holds out will inevitably be making the right call for them.  I am a business man and am not willing to turn down $52,000 in hopes of getting more.  I won't personally gamble with that kind of money and is probably why I have had the financial stability that I do.  I have always felt that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.  If you are able to gamble like that, than I hope it works for you.  I will take the closest I can take to a sure thing I can get and invest that money in things that have proven track records.  The shale under my property does not have that.  I have been in buisiness myself as well as well as helped manage businesses my entire adult life.  I have found that making financial decisions based on heresay or from people that have no experience in a particular field never works out.  I found that dealing with companies that have proven track records have always led to be the best decision in the end. That is my personal experience though.  Perhaps yours is different.  Make no mistake about this.  There will be lines in this play that turn out to be no good.  Where those lines end up, nobody knows because of the lack of information on our area.  There will be places that are better than others.  This is a fact and it is undisputable.  I referenced Michigan because the groups up there felt the same way as the groups here do.  Hold out and you will certainly get paid more.  What they didn't realize because the leaders had no experience in this industry or were not working close enough to the inside of industry is that when they thought they were getting bids from multiple companies, they weren't.  They got lead around like a dog on a leash by one of the Major oil companies.  If you read the comments up there attached to the some of the articles you will find there are people that claim they worked for some of these companies and it did happen.  Wether that is true or not the courts will have to decide.  The fact is that the biggest land group in Trumbull county has only sold to the same company named in those lawsuits in their other groups.  Not everyone was paid.  This is fact.  If I was involved with that group, I would definately investigate what happened in Northern Michigan and how those lawsuits are playing out.   It is very interesting. 

The people that were dealing in the beginning got paid, the people that held out got $0.  Sometimes it is a benefit to hold out but it doesn't always work.  Unfortunately the rhetoric that goes on on this site seems to be by people that do not have the knowledge or have done no research on how this works or they wouldn't say most of what is said on here. They spread words as gospel rather than check their facts. 

 Wishgard is upfront with what they say at their meetings.  I know because I present alot of them.  They do not pressure people into signing.  We explain the reason for why people in other areas have different offers and Make them aware that it is a gamble either way wether they hold out or sign on early.  If they are like me, they are signing because they have done their homework on the subject and are not willing to gamble with that much money just because someone else is willing to take a chance.  They do what is right for their situation and not what someone that is uniformed tells them to do.  They are informed, not suckers as you said and do not follow along like sheep.  They look out for their own best interest.  You would better serve everybody out there to worry more about your own business and what is best for you and quit the childish name calling and rediculous rhedoric that goes on here.  I am a satisfied client of wishgard and am proud to represent them.  They are doing a far better service to the communities than you are because they are informed and have knowledge on the subject that you will never have.  They are educating and offering an opportunity for those people that are not willing to gamble their entire finances on one dry hole. 

By the way, if you sat at a table to sign a lease than you did so under your own free will.  No one forced you to be there.  No doors get locked when people come in.  They are free to leave at any time.  One quick question before I leave this rediculous site indefinately.  If you lied about having a lease on your property than what else are you lieing about?  Clearly that is what you turned to first rather than being honest and saying that you were not comfortable with signing a lease at that time. Do us both a favor and at least come up with a story that doesn't make you look so rediculous before you bother to talk of someone else's integrety!  I lwas taught as a child that -, "it is better to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt."

I will not be back to this sight as it serves no valuable purpose and isn't protecting or helping anybody!!!

Permalink Reply by 09bp5t05myjl3 on October 16, 2011 at 3:48pm

Anyone that wants to believe Adams spin that they are not high pressure & don't tell half truths just go to ohio landowners forum/Wishgard topic & read the letter from wishgard how the oil companies only allot so much money & landowners could be left with nothing if we don't sign now, and read Mikes comment on this topic where he states "I question the landowners common sense" for not signing with wishgard early so your land gets drilled.

 

Permalink Reply by Adam Thomas on October 16, 2011 at 3:46pm

By the way, Just to be clear, I am not making any accusations direct or indirect whatsoever in regards to the correlation between the happening and events in Michigan and the Trumbull county landowner group.  I am only saying that if that sort of thing happens in this industry like it has ben alleged than perhaps no matter how kind hearted and well intentioned a particular group may be, unless they are directly involved and pervy to the pertinant information necessary to help everybody involved than they put the whole group at risk.  That is my concern in this.  It is easy to jump on board of a train once it gets rolling to where you want to be but if you don't have a leader with enough experience to guide the train through the night than when those leaders crash so do the rest of the people on board. That again is your call and I don't fault anyone for making whatever the best decision is for themselves.  Lease with whoever is the right company for you.  I just hope that you give thought to your decisions because when you put your finantial situation entirely in someone else's hands that are not directly affected than you don't know if they are Bernie Madoff or Warren Buffet unless you do your own research as I have done.  I might point out that a sleeping flock of sheep is alot easier for a pack of  wolves to surround and attack if there are only a few on guard. Share factual information and do what is right for you.  Once the dealing is done, you are inevitably responsuible for and have to live with the  decision you make. Blaming someone else will not change things or put lost money in your bank account.  Make a decision and don't look back wether you make a conservative decision as I have by getting involved early or you hold out. Either way is a gamble. 

Permalink Reply by Adam Thomas on October 17, 2011 at 3:33am

Of course the same three people continue their personal crusade because they do not know how the industry works.  Yes, offers do change all the time I addressed the truthfull reason for that and it is caused by the information that is available on that particular area at that time.  That information can be good for an area or bad.  It does not mean that someone is lieing.  As information changes in business so does the way business is ran.  Anybody that has any experience in any business can understande this.  It is not a hard concept to grasp.  I deal with that mantality on a day to day basis as some people believe that every tree thay have will veneer and is worth tons of money.  However there is no guarentee until the tree is on the ground.  It can look nice from the outside but less than 1 percent of the trees that are harvested are veneer quality.  They can be full of internal defects and not worth much of anything.  Until the tree is cut down, there is no way to know it's exact value.  Experience tells me when and how much to gamble. When confronted with an option to cut those trees down and get exactly what that tree is worth they choose not to take that gamble. If it is a veneer log they get veneer log price but if it has defects than they get paid a small fraction of the price.  Most people will let the buyer take the chance.  The oil companies look at this shale the same way as I do trees.  They are willing to take a chance but they will not bet too heavy unless there is more information and they know exactly what they are buying.  You don't stay in business long if you gamble big on every venture.  As they do more tests,  there offers change. Either for the better or for the worse.  The information and offers that are made and changed are not because the wishgard is dishonest.  It is because the information is constantly chaning in the industry.  For example,  the belmont or guernsey county thing that has been mentioned.  At the time,  the oil companies were afraid of that area.  It was unproven.  They do only have so much noney to work with and they want to invest it wisely.  As I said, if you gamble with every decision, you don't stay in business very long.  That area had no solid information that was available at that time, some companies were willing to take a chance but not bet the farm on it.  Fortunately, there was more information that came in later and they believe that it will be a good area so as I said, the offers have changed for the better in that area.  It has nothing to do with dishonesty, it has everything to do with the information that is available in the industry at that time.  Offers go up and offers go down every day in this industry based on whatever hard evidence is available at that time to support those decisions.  If they said that they had no intention on coming back than they had no intention of it.  If information became available that said it would be of interest to the oil companies than obviously that changed their minds.  It was not deceit or dishonesty.  Understand how the industry works before you spread word as gospel as you are sadly uninformed and fail to grasp the simplest aspect of the industry.

Mickgyver -I would appreciate it if you would refrain from referring to the people that bust their *ss everyday 7 days a week as a "POOR DUMB FARMER"  It just goes to show your lack of respect for anyone.  Farmers are not dumb.  They work very hard. 7 days a week to do something that you could probably never do.  They are out there in all weather making their living as honest as anyone can. I have alot of friends as well as cliets that are farmers.  They are not "dumb" or "poor".  In alot of cases they are worth millions of dollars but they don't go flaunt it because they are not natured that way.  They don't have anything to prove to the world.  They are making a living by pure hard work, conservative business practices, and by making decisions that are based on what is good for them.  They are highly intelligent people.  They may not have a degree from some high classed College but they are schooled far beyond most on how to succeed, survive, live from the land and how to run successful businesses.  They have a doctorate in the school of life experience.  If you had any experience with farmers, you would fully understand that.  However, the way you look down on them is purely evident as to how you look at people and the type of person you truly are.

I said I was not coming back on this page yesterday and I do not intend to come back again.  However I couldn't allow the three uninformed people that continue to prove their lack of knowledge or understanding of how this industry works to continue their rhetoric when they begin insulting the farmers and people that do not agree with their obviously warped vision of things on how the industry works.  It is apparent that if you do not agree with them than they feel you are wrong.  I have provided factual information in all my posts that I hope people can use.  There is alot more to this industry than these three uninformed individuals can grasp.  It is obvious in their responses.  I hope everybody is able to make the correct decision for themselves and not be led astray by people with no experience in the industry.  I wish you all the best of luck with your decisions.  I hope you are all able to capitalize on this unexpected, once in a lifetime oportunity that we have available to us.  Good luck everbody!

Adam Thomas

Permalink Reply by Mickgyver on October 17, 2011 at 5:54am

That a good Idea Craig , 

TARZAN ,uh sorry I mean adam  should just stick to his tree's something he knows about , because he has no respect for people who wish to pass on honest information to try to help others.

When you have to resort to childish ways of turning something around to fit your own agenda it is a sad day in shaletown .

I hope he get's the promotion he is trying to get with W***G*** he sure has what it takes .

Have a great day and I hope most of the friends and neighbors here end up right there with the luck of  Mr Jed Clampett when it is all said and done .

Permalink Reply by Mickgyver on October 17, 2011 at 5:38am

fyi , Adam I was referring to myself . I asked the question ,and I wanted to see if the answer would be honest or not , this was my first step in evaluating your company's representative at that time .

I was making a point that when we attend a meeting a lot of us have already done some research and that  nobody else was dumb enough to accept what was said there as the gospel. 

Did you not learn in College where you got all that Integrity you have bragged so much about, to read an entire aritcle before taking one part out, and trying to take it out of context.

The comment was meant to display the fact that some of the information that was presented was done presuming that nobody had already researched the situation before attending the meeting.

I was referring  to  the question which was asked at the meeting .(WHY IS Pennsylvania  GETTING SO MUCH MORE OF A BONUS OFFER AND WE ARE NOT ) 

The answer that was given was that we would not get as much of the bonus money because we did not have the Marcellus with the Utica .

The fact is we do have the Marcellus in some area and Belomont County where the meeting was held just happens to be one of them . It is not as thick as a lot of areas but it is here and I was told it can be produced.

But the main point that was entirely left out ,was that we also have the WET GAS which makes it even a better profitable play than just the dry gas in some areas of Pa.

I was just pointing out that because our area has many mixed trades we are absolutely not dumb in any way ,and a meeting should not be presented as such .

There are many highly educated people in all walks of life in our area and the farmers should never be second guessed because they are hard working and smart enough to survive off the land and make a little extra ,

But the fact is they deserve every bit of what they get because of the tremendous amount of time required to make a good living in this field .

There is nobody that desrves a break anymore than the farmers who are the back bone of the country If you have ever read many of the posts I put on here you would fully understand I have completely put all farmers on a pedestal without any question.

ALso I refuse to get into a battle of wits with someone who is apparently more unarmed than I first thought ,since you can't admit to the real truth about what was actually posted .

Don't be foolish enough to try to turn my comments around or you will find It will be a futile attempt to cover up what was said..  

And if you can't understand what I was trying to say so be it , I know what was said and when , and this is what I am passing on in that post and all the posts before where I have whole hearted'ly supported all the farmers and neighbors and friends in our area that deserve the truth .

I have to say im sorry if the truth hurt your itty bitty's but I can't go any further for fear of getting booted off the site and not be able to try to help others that truly appreciate the fact's as they were portrayed .

I apologize for lowering myself here folks to explain the situation so mr know it all would undertatnd what was said and why . I wish everyone the best of luck as always .

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